great idea Jp. Are you going? I'd love to but have pretty much shot my training/travel budget for a while--going to Growing Power and Nelson & Pade that month. We should trade notes after!
I'm pretty sure that I am going but yeah I'm still working out the small details of training/travel budget! Would be great to find somebody that wanted to rideshare- I'm driving a guzzler... comfy and safe but not cost effective.
I went to pick up a tables with pond liner and discovered Flora Tropicana Aquatics, Inc. in the middle of moving to Cupertino. It's too bad we're losing them but just thought I'd let the local people know that they have more tables and they also have some pond/aqauponic stuff marked down 20-50% They're on Grantline just off hwy 99 in Elk Grove. Right (South) side of Grantline just passed the train tracks- you can't miss the sign. Owners name is Marco, super nice guy.
goldfish, bluegill...feeding and growth declines or stops in cold, but they survive fine.
catfish: maybe same as above
trout: good for cold weather. I haven't raised them (or catfish) myself but know someone who has here, and he reports his go from fingerling size in November to edible size the following May or June (when it becomes too hot for them and you have to harvest them).
See also Jon Parr's page on this forum, he's growing other species too.
In quantities of 300 or more (too much for your system): ProAqua.com in Chico. Smaller quantities are hard to find for sale. You could try others on the State of California Registered Aquaculturist list (http://www.dfg.ca.gov/Aquaculture/). Or maybe others in this group will reply with suggestiong. Might try Jon Parr on this forum. Or, if you wait until summer and put in some hours volunteering at the California Aquaculture Association's exhibit at the State Fair in July, perhaps you could take some home from there after the fair. That's how I got mine last year. : ) See upcoming separate thread on that subject. By the way, perhaps starting a "discussion" for your next question would be a better way than using the comment wall, just a suggestion.
I sell fingerlings, usually $2 each, $40 min. I'm low on bluegill, green sunfish, and crappie right now, more soon. I have plenty of tilapia. Catfish, trout, and Sac Perch in a couple months. Redclaws just stratting to lay eggs, so babies are about three months out (they stay attached to mama's tail for six weeks). Shipping usually within $20, or come visit me in Santa Cruz
@ Fishy Mc - "They are not using natural waterways for growing. Therefore DFG can't stop them."
A few months ago I told DFG that I wanted to raise Tilapia commercially for food in a closed system inside a warehouse, and asked what I needed to do in order to raise Tilapia. They sent me a reply that clearly stated that I could not raise Tilapia in Northern California under any circumstance.
I did a Google search, but turn nothing up about the commercial operation in Modoc County you mentioned. Do you have any further information? It's a 5 hour drive, but I may have to go see this for myself. I want to find out how they managed to slip past the DFG.
Yes, I ran up against the same issue, though it ought to be challenged. to the best of my knowledge, the operation was grandfathered in when the regulations prohibiting this practice went into effect.
My humble opinion would be that the Northern Cal operation in question is not legal, but that DFG probably doesn't have the resources to pursue prosecution (if indeed they have noticed the operation). The "not using natural waterways" argument seems like wishful thinking.
Bob, write DFG back and ask for the regulation prohibiting tilapia. They will back down if you're hobby or personal use, because their policy is not supported by law. For commercial aquaculture, meaning raising fish for human consumption, they DO have authority. They can deny a request on a whim, or approve it on a bribe, the choice is yours. The outfit Fishy is citing is either under the radar so far, or appropriate bribes have been placed, IMO
Thanks for the feed back. It's good to be part of this group!
I'm still learning the ropes and assessing the profitability of aquaponics on a larger scale. To be honest I've had some problems with my plants, and have a ways to go before investing in a large scale operation..
Maybe in the mean time DF&G will see that commercial operations and those with a serious passion should be permitted. It makes no sense to prohibit something that can be done on a hobby level by anyone willing to find find a source of Tilapia. After all it's just a day's drive to southern Cal,
I've invested several thousand into this research, and as a serious fish farmer I'd be a lot less likely to toss any fish whether it be Channel Cat or Tilapia into the wild than a hobbyist. I think DF&G is afraid of the wrong group of people, but if that's what they want then if and when I decide to go commercial I will move back to Arizona where labor, and land cost less, and the government stays out of your face.
As a California General Building Contractor the government bureaucrats a never ceases to astound me with their dim witted rules. This is just more of the same stupidity.
I'd love to raise tilapia myself, and I bet there are some irrationalities in current regulations, but I think it's quite reasonable for the state (and aquaponics practitioners) to be cautious about a potentially hugely invasive species (or group of species) such as tilapia. Even if it may be too cold for them to winter over in much of the state, they could potentially do a lot of damage in one warm season. And I believe it's pretty much guaranteed that some folks would release them into surrounding waters, even if most folks wouldn't.
My experience with DFG has been that it's hard to get a consistent story from different staff, but I have heard that they are aware of the growing popularity of aquaponics and of the desire of many to raise tilapia and that they may be trying to come up with a way to accommodate those trends in their regs. At some point, since I live walking distance from their HQ, I'd like to resume pursuing the issue with them. And, for those of you who are also near by, you might consider doing as well. I think it would be a service to the aquaponics community that we are uniquely situated to carry out.
I think to many hobby aquaponists worry way too much about the DFG. Worry about the DFG when you are fishing... They don't care about fish in your backyard.
That being said, Tilapia aren't the right fish for northern california, atleast not in Solano county. Too cold. Some Tilapia will survive colder temps, but they will not grow well until water temps are above 80 F, which for me only happened for a few weeks last year (last yr was cold). Trout will grow from fingerling to 12-16 inches in just 6 months. Catfish can provide the necessary waste during the summer. I suppose you could grow tilapia for the other 6 months.
I still want to find a fast growing, year round fish for our climate. Maybe the Sacramento Perch? Anybody know the grow out on them?
So many good points, Joe, Paul and Bob. I'd like to chime in.
Paul, you can raise tilapia legally in California for hobby use, regardless of what they tell you. Ask any DFG naysayer for the specific regulation. Goldfish, Koi, and all tropical fish not listed as prohibited are legal for hobby purposes without permission or permit. Period. The regulation has a discrepancy regarding temperate fish. In one place regarding hobby exemption for closed-loop systems, it lists 'koi, goldfish, and all freshwater fish' and in another spot it lists 'koi, goldfish, and all TROPICAL freshwater fish', either way tilapia are tropical and thus legal. The real question is whether we can have temperates in Aquaponics in Cali. If you take stock in the latter verbage, then all temperates except koi and goldfish require a permit, including catfish, bluegill, crappie, sac perch, sac blackfish, etc. If you take stock in the first verbage, then all AP systems are exempt of permit requirement (I side with this one, of course :P) Paul, why do you think tilapia would cause harm during a partial year of living large? I have found no such detriment. Tilapia eat algae, plants, and detritus. They do not compete with natives in this respect. Conversely, the rest of the USA stocks tilapia every year, everywhere they can, with great results. All species thrive when tilapia are present. Tilapia prevent algae blooms and opaque water, and supply forage fish for all pond residents and birds. In the winter, they slow down long before they die, providing easy pickings for bass etc, allowing temperate predators to fatten up before the winter. And tilapia always die in our winters, ALWAYS! DFG argues that tilapia may mutate to survive the cold. Sure, they may, but they haven't yet in any portion of the world, and they have certainly had time and opportunity to do so. In this respect, tilapia are the absolute least likely invasive threat of any of our choices.
I do agree with you that DFG should be concerned with fish raised in Aquaponics. In the interest of keeping invasives out if our waters, DFG should be involved with our fish choices. But such concern is too little, too late. Only Sac perch, and trout (am I missing any) are natives worth growing, all others (bass, bluegill, green sunfish, catfish, stripers, etc) are not native and DO threaten native fish, because they can survive and compete in the wild. Bluegill alone caused the demise of sac perch. Yet DFG signs bluegill stocking permits every day, and denies tilapia it's place in aquaculture.
Joe, I'm raising sac perch, and will have fingerlings as soon as I can, but haven't grown them out yet, so no advice on growth rates. I'm told they are similar to bluegill, but a bit faster to grow and better to eat. They are feeding very well on pellets, and BSFL. So fun to watch them munch on surplus tilapia fry.
Paul, I ask a favor. If you do visit the DFG soon, ask them their policy on keeping Sac Perch and other natives. Are they worried they will escape and repopulate native waters? Seriously, I'd like to know, and I've been reluctant to ask, afraid of the answer I suppose.
Jon, thanks for your last two posts. It won't be real soon that I take on approaching DFG about this stuff. Too many other things on my plate at the moment. Maybe later this year? If/when I do, I'll let folks know and can certainly include your questions about Sac Perch and other natives. If someone else decides to take on this task before I do, that'd be fine too.
So without poring over the details of the regs right now, I'll just say this from my memory of last time I did do so: I too thought what I was reading there might be interpreted as allowing us to keep certain species of tilapia, and a district-level DFG staffer even seemed to agree. But when he went to put in the paperwork for my permits, he was unambiguously corrected by higher-ups, in fact, by the state aquaculture coordinator at the time. It's true there are different potential ways of interpreting what the regs say in different places, but my sense is that in the end, their clear policy is and has been that tilapia are illegal north of the Tehachapi Mountains. Whether that's the best policy or not, and whether it is well-supported by current regs, are debatable, and Jon you bring up some very interesting points. But I do think that's the current policy, and with all due respect, it seems like it's more or less "hearing what we want to hear" to rely on any other interpretation.
I think the aquaponics community (or movement, if you will), is getting large and vital enough that the state would need to address our concerns if raised. We could also enlist the assistance of traditional fish farmers in the state. They each pay their $700 (or greater) in DFG fees every year in order to operate their businesses, and they have dealt with DFG for years. They have an organized industry association that can be pretty effective--they just went thru a big struggle about some proposed regs and won. They would have some knowhow and clout that could really help us. There also could be other allies we could call on at some point if necessary.
You are absolutely correct. DFG's "policy" is no tilapia in NorCal. And the primary reason for the "policy" is that tilapia already exist in SoCal, so no point in restricting them there. That is the most backwards way of thinking I can comprehend. DFG allows tilapia where they can survive the wilds, and bans them where they cannot. Anyway, you are correct, DFG policy is clear. The law, however, is equally clear and does not support their "policy". For DFG to enforce their "policy" which is outside the current law, is illegal and fraudulent. Sort of like a cop enforcing his own speed limit other than the posted limit, or fining red cars because he feels red cars are dangerous, or citing immigrants because he feels they shouldn't be here. Wrong an illegal, even immoral. And DFG knows it, and will tell you if you push. And try will back down. I would like some honesty and common sense.
And I'm not pushing tilapia, really. Nothing would make me happier than pulling the plug on all my heaters. I'm really hoping sad perch do well, and if they do, I won't have any non-natives on my property. In the meantime, tilapia are the best suited fish we can get for Aquaponics. And the only truly legal fish to raise without a permit (well maybe pacu or pangasius would be good too), because of the exemption that tropical fish hold in the current law.
Great reading, quick question- I just inherited a 75 gallon tank (it's at 76 degrees with two filters (mag 350 & emp 400) and one very happy little beta. The idea is to get familiar with a species that I can use in my future aquaponics system.
So the question is, any tips/advice and who has a few starters I could pick up?Thanks guys.
Nice find. I sell fingerlings and can ship, unless someone closer can hook you up. I'm impressed lately with green sunfish. I got a few with a bluegill order, and they are very tough and feed more aggressively than BG. Greenies are generally considered a junk fish, really only used to breed hybrid bluegills, because in a lake or pond they overbreed and stunt, and their aggressive appetites compete with bass. But in AP, they might be great. If nothing else, they are really pretty fish, and definitely suitable for aquarium. Better relocate your beta though, he won't last a minute with greenies.
alright great info- thanks Jon- my son pulled rank (I told him it would be his tank) but I will certainly keep in mind that you have fingerlings for sale when I'm ready. *going back into observation mode*
I haven't had the greenies very long, and cant find much data on growth rates. They are reported to taste great, same as all sunfish, but I've not had them. I have a few pushing 8" long, and all are aggressive feeders, so I expect their growth will be fast. They breed in shallow water, like less than 18", so I expect some eggs soon. Hatchlings are larval, requiring zooplankton like other sunfish for the first two weeks, then powdered pellets are good. They grow to a couple of pounds in ponds, but only when overpopulation doesn't stunt them. Tilapia are the same way, stunting if allowed to breed without predation.
Will they get big enough in AP? Dunno. I'll tell you next year.
I have extra catfish fingerlings if anyone is interested. I am paying $1 for 2-4 inch long catfish from a reputable local supplier. Call me 916 502 3313
Hi everyone, just joined nice to see so many people excited about Aquaponics. I have an IBC going for about a year. We are already talking about expanding. I have already made use of all the info on the forum. Thanks.
Hello everyone and special thanks for welcome from Mr. Trudeau. I am happy that there is alot of exchange of information. I am really just getting started. Wish I could have went on the june 10th tour. well be around.
Hey everyone! Great seeing you all on the tour. Thank you to Jane, Darcy, Paul, Orion, and Joe for sharing your systems and experience with us and to you attendees that provided helpful info, as well.
Hey everybody, I know it's late and very last minute, bit I'm headed to Sacramento for a grad party tomorrow morning. And I am bringing fingerlings with me to deliver along the way. I've got 1-3" bluegill, 5-8" channel catfish, 2-5" salton sea tilapia. For simplicity, all are $2.50 each delivered, as long as it's near my route between Santa Cruz and Sac. If interested, text me before 8 am mañana, and I'll try and fit you in. Good night.
Alright so we took the beta fish out and put them into vases. I plan on dropping net pots with some type of plant in and then donating them to some of the local elderly folks in assisted living. I'm going to have to find cheap pumps/airstones before I do that but anyhow- my son agreed to compromise and do that in order to make room for our new fingerlings! Thanks Jon.
I was curious to see if they would eat after such a exciting day. After acclimating and releasing the little guys I dropped a pinch of flake food in to see if they would eat and they didn't even hessitate- food gone immediately! So I dropped a tiny bit of everything in there- chichlid crumbles, daphnia, blood worms, mysis- all gone fast! So I dropped a couple algea thins in and they didn't waste any time starting in on those either! So yeah that was fun.
What I'm wondering is how aggressive will they get? will the neons, danios and plecostomus be ok or is it just a matter of time before they're all on the menu too? Any comments, suggestions/advice? thanks in advance.
Ok, so I spent most of yesterday in/under the sun- I think it was 107 most of the day. what I was mainly wanting to know is are my Tetra's, Danio's, and sucker fish going to become feeder fish if I leave them in with the Salton Sea Talapia? We wouldn't want that. Open to any other comment's/suggestions as well. Thanks all!
You're welcome, JP. The young tilapia are carnivores, but they become more vegetarian as they get older. By the time they get big enough to eat your tetras, they will likely not crave meat anymore. All that changes if they get hungry, as in skipping a day of feed. If tilapia are hungry, they eat anything they can wrap their lips around. BTW, those are Hawaiian golds, not Saltons. Enjoy
I just transferred my Tilapia to the large 275 gal. tank today. They grew so fast the pump could not keep up with them. They are about 3 weeks now and they are 1.5 to 2 inches and they all grew at different rates. When I first got them they were so small I had to cover the filter so it wouldn't suck them up. I have fed them baby meal worms, and duck weed which they ate with relish. I hope all goes well but I am glad to have them out of the house. Less work. I don't know if this helps but just more info. I have heard that tilapia are really hardy and so far it is true.
I noticed they're different sizes too, I just figured it was the greedy guys that were growing more and/or the smaller were female. I might feel differently about this when they're grown but I can't imagine putting them outside- they're so cute! but yeah they do poop a lot.
"Hawaiian Golds"- good to know, I'm so glad you brought them out. We're very happy with them. Hopefully the other fish are being nice when nobody is watching because we're going to leave them in there and see what happens.
There has been rumor that Hydroton has gone out of business, and pending orders are being filled with a product called "Plant-It". A couple months ago I did some research, and found a product made by TXI Texas Industries Inc. They make Expanded Shale as well as a clay product similar to Hydroton.
Expanded Shale is sold by the yard in Stockton. My take on Expanded Shale is that it is better than Hydroton. I have been meaning to make the 250 mile trip from Chico, but have not been able to pick up a load yet.
I'm hoping to spark the interest of someone closer to Stockton so that it can be evaluated for use in aquaponincs. It's only $89/Yard !
Here's a report from my contact in Tucson Arizona who bought some expanded shale from a retailer who is repackaging bulk into bags. Do the math... $89/yard and they resell it for $20/60lbs
$20 for 60lbs. It's very light even the bigger chunks, though the dust is very fine and sandy requiring lots of washing.
I've been trying to get my local landscape retailer and hydroponic stores up here in Chico to carry it but nobody seems to see the value.
I'll be taking a serious look at buying media in the next month. I have the info from the first time you posted the expanded shale retailer in my bookmarks. I'll end up needing slightly over a yard, and after shoveling a yard and a half of gravel in the last week, half the weight sure sounds worth the cost difference....
@Fishy - I'm glad you are willing to experiment with Expanded Shale. Since my system is currently filled with large plants; I'm not motivated to make the long haul to Stockton and back right now, but after I pull all the tomatoes out in the fall I will want to replace the gravel with something lighter, and less abrasive to my hands and finger nails. I'm not a girly guy, but man that gravel is really hard on the fingers. I have figured out that adding pea gravel helps, but I'm guessing that expanded shale will be much better.
I have encountered another problem with gravel in my outdoor system where I have both gravel and deep water culture tanks sharing the same water. The iron cations are attracted to the gravel, and literally sucked out of the water which caused the plants in the raft to turn yellow.
The basil plant on the left is from the raft, the plant on the right is in the gravel.
It has taken quite a bit of iron chelate to saturate the gravel. I want to find out if expanded shale will also interfere with the Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) like the gravel or if the FE2+ will remain more available to the plants in the deep water culture.
I have recently made several blog posts about iron deficiency that may be of interest. ChicoAquaponic. I wish I had taken chemistry in school. Understanding the intricate relationships of bio chemistry has become very interesting to me.
I also expect expanded shale offers more surface area for the bacteria which is really important to me because my system is out of balance, and should have more area devoted to grow beds.
I use the lava rock, scoria. It is quite rough on the hands. However, I never dig in it with my hands. I always use a trowel. For planting, I take two hand trowels facing each other and push them into the gravel. This creates a cavity where I insert the plant, then I remove the trowels and the trench will mostly back itself.
The gravel you have is not affecting pH? In my experiments I found Pea gravel to buffer the pH upwards. pH is really important for iron availability. I try to keep my system pH below 7, which for me means adding a lot of HCl because my tap water is 8.2 pH.
The biggest issue in AP with iron though, in my opinion, is not simply pH, but a deficiency of iron in the media. In soil there is usually abundant iron and the problem of iron deficiency in plants is high pH. In AP, there is not much iron, even if it is highly available. So it must be added. I use Iron Sulfate.
I have heard a lot of good things about expanded shale. $80/yd isn't too bad, if some of you want smaller quantities maybe you could combine your orders and get a yd.
I just posted this in Media Based Systems but could not find a way to link directly to my post.
II think I can find the time to pick up half a yard tomorrow. I'll let you know what I think ASAP.
Robert C. Rowe (Bob) suggested pumice so I checked a local landscape supply here in Chico, and found this. The handful below may need a little screening, but the price is right and the description says it's pH neutral!
I'd suggest looking around at your local soil suppliers
Pumice(3/8 x 1/16) Pumice is an excellent soil conditioner, as it is highly porous giving it excellent water and air holding properties.
Advantages of Using Pumice:
Excellent conditioner for soils that need increased aeration and drainage.
Loosens the density of heavy soils, letting in the air and water plants need.
Increases water retention in light and sandy soils.
Reduces crusting, cracking, flooding and shrinking & swelling of clay soils.
Holds moisture in the soil, reducing watering requirements by as much as 35%, but pumice will not compact or become soggy.
Is inorganic, so it will not decompose or compact over time, meaning it functions continuously and can be recycled and reused.
Does not attract or host fungi, nematodes, or insects.
PH neutral
These advantages can be realized with as little as 10% addition of pumice to the soil or growing medium.
Bob, I would imagine pumice to behave like perlite, which most users wind up having a hard time with. It floats, and the variable size lets it end up everywhere in the system, including pump and pump shaft. Not a huge problem, just take care to contain it, after all, it's most common use is as an abrasive.
I read through you site, very interesting that you feel the gravel sucked up the ferrous iron. Other than the visual difference of raft produce to media produce, is there any other reason you believe this? I'm not trying to be pessimistic, just making sure I understand. Media holds the gunk and the bioslime, and naturally more mineral available to the plants. I doubt the gravel you are using will be any more or less iron robbing than other medias, just my hunch. Run your iron theory by Vlad, and see if he agrees. He knows his iron chemistry.
I'm also not sure if I agree that iron caused the yellowing and chlorosis your basil exhibits looks like over-all deficiency, which may be caused by low DO under your raft (low DO causes roots to be poor at uptaking all nutrients, even if they are present in available form). Iron shows yellowing only in the newest growth, nitrogen in the oldest growth, and your basil pic was yellow forms stem to stern.
@Jon - It was Vlad that suggested the rock may be attracting the Iron Cations. I'm quite certain it was an iron deficiency because it cleared up immediately after using a product that actually has iron chelate in it. The first product I used had nearly imperceptible levels of FE2+. Don't use the stuff they make for aquariums.
It's probably not due to lack of DO. I have 4 air stones under the raft.
Paul Trudeau
great idea Jp. Are you going? I'd love to but have pretty much shot my training/travel budget for a while--going to Growing Power and Nelson & Pade that month. We should trade notes after!
Mar 20, 2012
Justin
I'm pretty sure that I am going but yeah I'm still working out the small details of training/travel budget! Would be great to find somebody that wanted to rideshare- I'm driving a guzzler... comfy and safe but not cost effective.
Mar 20, 2012
Jane
Anyone know of a place to get freshwater prawns
Mar 23, 2012
rnbowarrior
http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=117...
Mar 23, 2012
Justin
sharing link I found on Craigslist:
http://sacramento.craigslist.org/zip/2920963222.html
I went to pick up a tables with pond liner and discovered Flora Tropicana Aquatics, Inc. in the middle of moving to Cupertino. It's too bad we're losing them but just thought I'd let the local people know that they have more tables and they also have some pond/aqauponic stuff marked down 20-50% They're on Grantline just off hwy 99 in Elk Grove. Right (South) side of Grantline just passed the train tracks- you can't miss the sign. Owners name is Marco, super nice guy.
Mar 26, 2012
Paul Trudeau
hot tip, thanks Jp!
Mar 26, 2012
Paul Trudeau
Here are some:
goldfish, bluegill...feeding and growth declines or stops in cold, but they survive fine.
catfish: maybe same as above
trout: good for cold weather. I haven't raised them (or catfish) myself but know someone who has here, and he reports his go from fingerling size in November to edible size the following May or June (when it becomes too hot for them and you have to harvest them).
See also Jon Parr's page on this forum, he's growing other species too.
Mar 30, 2012
Paul Trudeau
In quantities of 300 or more (too much for your system): ProAqua.com in Chico. Smaller quantities are hard to find for sale. You could try others on the State of California Registered Aquaculturist list (http://www.dfg.ca.gov/Aquaculture/). Or maybe others in this group will reply with suggestiong. Might try Jon Parr on this forum. Or, if you wait until summer and put in some hours volunteering at the California Aquaculture Association's exhibit at the State Fair in July, perhaps you could take some home from there after the fair. That's how I got mine last year. : ) See upcoming separate thread on that subject. By the way, perhaps starting a "discussion" for your next question would be a better way than using the comment wall, just a suggestion.
Mar 30, 2012
Jon Parr
Mar 30, 2012
Fishy McFisherson
Thought you all might be interested in this.
Commercial tilapia farm in Northern California
Apr 3, 2012
Bob Campbell
@ Fishy Mc - "They are not using natural waterways for growing. Therefore DFG can't stop them."
A few months ago I told DFG that I wanted to raise Tilapia commercially for food in a closed system inside a warehouse, and asked what I needed to do in order to raise Tilapia. They sent me a reply that clearly stated that I could not raise Tilapia in Northern California under any circumstance.
I did a Google search, but turn nothing up about the commercial operation in Modoc County you mentioned. Do you have any further information? It's a 5 hour drive, but I may have to go see this for myself. I want to find out how they managed to slip past the DFG.
Apr 13, 2012
Alpine Aquaponics
Yes, I ran up against the same issue, though it ought to be challenged. to the best of my knowledge, the operation was grandfathered in when the regulations prohibiting this practice went into effect.
Apr 13, 2012
Paul Trudeau
My humble opinion would be that the Northern Cal operation in question is not legal, but that DFG probably doesn't have the resources to pursue prosecution (if indeed they have noticed the operation). The "not using natural waterways" argument seems like wishful thinking.
Apr 13, 2012
Jon Parr
Apr 13, 2012
Bob Campbell
Thanks for the feed back. It's good to be part of this group!
I'm still learning the ropes and assessing the profitability of aquaponics on a larger scale. To be honest I've had some problems with my plants, and have a ways to go before investing in a large scale operation..
Maybe in the mean time DF&G will see that commercial operations and those with a serious passion should be permitted. It makes no sense to prohibit something that can be done on a hobby level by anyone willing to find find a source of Tilapia. After all it's just a day's drive to southern Cal,
I've invested several thousand into this research, and as a serious fish farmer I'd be a lot less likely to toss any fish whether it be Channel Cat or Tilapia into the wild than a hobbyist. I think DF&G is afraid of the wrong group of people, but if that's what they want then if and when I decide to go commercial I will move back to Arizona where labor, and land cost less, and the government stays out of your face.
As a California General Building Contractor the government bureaucrats a never ceases to astound me with their dim witted rules. This is just more of the same stupidity.
Apr 13, 2012
Paul Trudeau
I'd love to raise tilapia myself, and I bet there are some irrationalities in current regulations, but I think it's quite reasonable for the state (and aquaponics practitioners) to be cautious about a potentially hugely invasive species (or group of species) such as tilapia. Even if it may be too cold for them to winter over in much of the state, they could potentially do a lot of damage in one warm season. And I believe it's pretty much guaranteed that some folks would release them into surrounding waters, even if most folks wouldn't.
My experience with DFG has been that it's hard to get a consistent story from different staff, but I have heard that they are aware of the growing popularity of aquaponics and of the desire of many to raise tilapia and that they may be trying to come up with a way to accommodate those trends in their regs. At some point, since I live walking distance from their HQ, I'd like to resume pursuing the issue with them. And, for those of you who are also near by, you might consider doing as well. I think it would be a service to the aquaponics community that we are uniquely situated to carry out.
Apr 13, 2012
joe
I think to many hobby aquaponists worry way too much about the DFG. Worry about the DFG when you are fishing... They don't care about fish in your backyard.
That being said, Tilapia aren't the right fish for northern california, atleast not in Solano county. Too cold. Some Tilapia will survive colder temps, but they will not grow well until water temps are above 80 F, which for me only happened for a few weeks last year (last yr was cold). Trout will grow from fingerling to 12-16 inches in just 6 months. Catfish can provide the necessary waste during the summer. I suppose you could grow tilapia for the other 6 months.
I still want to find a fast growing, year round fish for our climate. Maybe the Sacramento Perch? Anybody know the grow out on them?
Apr 13, 2012
Jon Parr
Paul, you can raise tilapia legally in California for hobby use, regardless of what they tell you. Ask any DFG naysayer for the specific regulation. Goldfish, Koi, and all tropical fish not listed as prohibited are legal for hobby purposes without permission or permit. Period. The regulation has a discrepancy regarding temperate fish. In one place regarding hobby exemption for closed-loop systems, it lists 'koi, goldfish, and all freshwater fish' and in another spot it lists 'koi, goldfish, and all TROPICAL freshwater fish', either way tilapia are tropical and thus legal. The real question is whether we can have temperates in Aquaponics in Cali. If you take stock in the latter verbage, then all temperates except koi and goldfish require a permit, including catfish, bluegill, crappie, sac perch, sac blackfish, etc. If you take stock in the first verbage, then all AP systems are exempt of permit requirement (I side with this one, of course :P) Paul, why do you think tilapia would cause harm during a partial year of living large? I have found no such detriment. Tilapia eat algae, plants, and detritus. They do not compete with natives in this respect. Conversely, the rest of the USA stocks tilapia every year, everywhere they can, with great results. All species thrive when tilapia are present. Tilapia prevent algae blooms and opaque water, and supply forage fish for all pond residents and birds. In the winter, they slow down long before they die, providing easy pickings for bass etc, allowing temperate predators to fatten up before the winter. And tilapia always die in our winters, ALWAYS! DFG argues that tilapia may mutate to survive the cold. Sure, they may, but they haven't yet in any portion of the world, and they have certainly had time and opportunity to do so. In this respect, tilapia are the absolute least likely invasive threat of any of our choices.
I do agree with you that DFG should be concerned with fish raised in Aquaponics. In the interest of keeping invasives out if our waters, DFG should be involved with our fish choices. But such concern is too little, too late. Only Sac perch, and trout (am I missing any) are natives worth growing, all others (bass, bluegill, green sunfish, catfish, stripers, etc) are not native and DO threaten native fish, because they can survive and compete in the wild. Bluegill alone caused the demise of sac perch. Yet DFG signs bluegill stocking permits every day, and denies tilapia it's place in aquaculture.
Joe, I'm raising sac perch, and will have fingerlings as soon as I can, but haven't grown them out yet, so no advice on growth rates. I'm told they are similar to bluegill, but a bit faster to grow and better to eat. They are feeding very well on pellets, and BSFL. So fun to watch them munch on surplus tilapia fry.
Apr 13, 2012
Jon Parr
Apr 13, 2012
Paul Trudeau
Jon, thanks for your last two posts. It won't be real soon that I take on approaching DFG about this stuff. Too many other things on my plate at the moment. Maybe later this year? If/when I do, I'll let folks know and can certainly include your questions about Sac Perch and other natives. If someone else decides to take on this task before I do, that'd be fine too.
So without poring over the details of the regs right now, I'll just say this from my memory of last time I did do so: I too thought what I was reading there might be interpreted as allowing us to keep certain species of tilapia, and a district-level DFG staffer even seemed to agree. But when he went to put in the paperwork for my permits, he was unambiguously corrected by higher-ups, in fact, by the state aquaculture coordinator at the time. It's true there are different potential ways of interpreting what the regs say in different places, but my sense is that in the end, their clear policy is and has been that tilapia are illegal north of the Tehachapi Mountains. Whether that's the best policy or not, and whether it is well-supported by current regs, are debatable, and Jon you bring up some very interesting points. But I do think that's the current policy, and with all due respect, it seems like it's more or less "hearing what we want to hear" to rely on any other interpretation.
I think the aquaponics community (or movement, if you will), is getting large and vital enough that the state would need to address our concerns if raised. We could also enlist the assistance of traditional fish farmers in the state. They each pay their $700 (or greater) in DFG fees every year in order to operate their businesses, and they have dealt with DFG for years. They have an organized industry association that can be pretty effective--they just went thru a big struggle about some proposed regs and won. They would have some knowhow and clout that could really help us. There also could be other allies we could call on at some point if necessary.
Apr 14, 2012
Jon Parr
And I'm not pushing tilapia, really. Nothing would make me happier than pulling the plug on all my heaters. I'm really hoping sad perch do well, and if they do, I won't have any non-natives on my property. In the meantime, tilapia are the best suited fish we can get for Aquaponics. And the only truly legal fish to raise without a permit (well maybe pacu or pangasius would be good too), because of the exemption that tropical fish hold in the current law.
Apr 14, 2012
Jon Parr
Apr 14, 2012
Justin
Great reading, quick question- I just inherited a 75 gallon tank (it's at 76 degrees with two filters (mag 350 & emp 400) and one very happy little beta. The idea is to get familiar with a species that I can use in my future aquaponics system.
So the question is, any tips/advice and who has a few starters I could pick up?Thanks guys.
Apr 21, 2012
Jon Parr
Apr 21, 2012
Fishy McFisherson
Those greenies are pretty fish. How do they taste? Secondly, would they grow to edible size in tanks?
Apr 21, 2012
Justin
alright great info- thanks Jon- my son pulled rank (I told him it would be his tank) but I will certainly keep in mind that you have fingerlings for sale when I'm ready. *going back into observation mode*
Apr 21, 2012
Jon Parr
Will they get big enough in AP? Dunno. I'll tell you next year.
Apr 21, 2012
Alpine Aquaponics
Sacramento Perch Availability
I am looking for a professional source for sacramento perch, for a client. Any of you folks in the valley have a lead for this?
Apr 30, 2012
Fishy McFisherson
These guys supposedly do, or did, I havent checked on it personally.
Freshwater Fish Co
11520 Bruceville Road, Elk Grove, CA 95757
Apr 30, 2012
Orion Dillon
I have extra catfish fingerlings if anyone is interested. I am paying $1 for 2-4 inch long catfish from a reputable local supplier. Call me 916 502 3313
May 6, 2012
Bradley C Taylor
Just wondering if the details for the tour June10th were worked out yet?
May 22, 2012
Paul Trudeau
May 23, 2012
Janet Little
Hi everyone, just joined nice to see so many people excited about Aquaponics. I have an IBC going for about a year. We are already talking about expanding. I have already made use of all the info on the forum. Thanks.
May 31, 2012
Rochelle Hopkins
Hello everyone and special thanks for welcome from Mr. Trudeau. I am happy that there is alot of exchange of information. I am really just getting started. Wish I could have went on the june 10th tour. well be around.
Jun 13, 2012
Bradley C Taylor
Hey everyone! Great seeing you all on the tour. Thank you to Jane, Darcy, Paul, Orion, and Joe for sharing your systems and experience with us and to you attendees that provided helpful info, as well.
Jun 13, 2012
Jon Parr
Jun 15, 2012
Jon Parr
Jun 15, 2012
Justin
Alright so we took the beta fish out and put them into vases. I plan on dropping net pots with some type of plant in and then donating them to some of the local elderly folks in assisted living. I'm going to have to find cheap pumps/airstones before I do that but anyhow- my son agreed to compromise and do that in order to make room for our new fingerlings! Thanks Jon.
I was curious to see if they would eat after such a exciting day. After acclimating and releasing the little guys I dropped a pinch of flake food in to see if they would eat and they didn't even hessitate- food gone immediately! So I dropped a tiny bit of everything in there- chichlid crumbles, daphnia, blood worms, mysis- all gone fast! So I dropped a couple algea thins in and they didn't waste any time starting in on those either! So yeah that was fun.
What I'm wondering is how aggressive will they get? will the neons, danios and plecostomus be ok or is it just a matter of time before they're all on the menu too? Any comments, suggestions/advice? thanks in advance.
-Jp
Jun 17, 2012
Justin
Ok, so I spent most of yesterday in/under the sun- I think it was 107 most of the day. what I was mainly wanting to know is are my Tetra's, Danio's, and sucker fish going to become feeder fish if I leave them in with the Salton Sea Talapia? We wouldn't want that. Open to any other comment's/suggestions as well. Thanks all!
-Jp
Jun 17, 2012
Jon Parr
Jun 17, 2012
Janet Little
I just transferred my Tilapia to the large 275 gal. tank today. They grew so fast the pump could not keep up with them. They are about 3 weeks now and they are 1.5 to 2 inches and they all grew at different rates. When I first got them they were so small I had to cover the filter so it wouldn't suck them up. I have fed them baby meal worms, and duck weed which they ate with relish. I hope all goes well but I am glad to have them out of the house. Less work. I don't know if this helps but just more info. I have heard that tilapia are really hardy and so far it is true.
Jun 17, 2012
Justin
I noticed they're different sizes too, I just figured it was the greedy guys that were growing more and/or the smaller were female. I might feel differently about this when they're grown but I can't imagine putting them outside- they're so cute! but yeah they do poop a lot.
"Hawaiian Golds"- good to know, I'm so glad you brought them out. We're very happy with them. Hopefully the other fish are being nice when nobody is watching because we're going to leave them in there and see what happens.
Jun 18, 2012
Bob Campbell
There has been rumor that Hydroton has gone out of business, and pending orders are being filled with a product called "Plant-It". A couple months ago I did some research, and found a product made by TXI Texas Industries Inc. They make Expanded Shale as well as a clay product similar to Hydroton.
Expanded Shale is sold by the yard in Stockton. My take on Expanded Shale is that it is better than Hydroton. I have been meaning to make the 250 mile trip from Chico, but have not been able to pick up a load yet.
I'm hoping to spark the interest of someone closer to Stockton so that it can be evaluated for use in aquaponincs. It's only $89/Yard !
CLICK HERE FOR MORE INFORMATION
Jun 29, 2012
Bob Campbell
Here's a report from my contact in Tucson Arizona who bought some expanded shale from a retailer who is repackaging bulk into bags. Do the math... $89/yard and they resell it for $20/60lbs
I've been trying to get my local landscape retailer and hydroponic stores up here in Chico to carry it but nobody seems to see the value.
Maybe now that Hydroton is off the market they will take notice.
Jun 30, 2012
Fishy McFisherson
I'll be taking a serious look at buying media in the next month. I have the info from the first time you posted the expanded shale retailer in my bookmarks. I'll end up needing slightly over a yard, and after shoveling a yard and a half of gravel in the last week, half the weight sure sounds worth the cost difference....
Jun 30, 2012
Bob Campbell
@Fishy - I'm glad you are willing to experiment with Expanded Shale. Since my system is currently filled with large plants; I'm not motivated to make the long haul to Stockton and back right now, but after I pull all the tomatoes out in the fall I will want to replace the gravel with something lighter, and less abrasive to my hands and finger nails. I'm not a girly guy, but man that gravel is really hard on the fingers. I have figured out that adding pea gravel helps, but I'm guessing that expanded shale will be much better.
I have encountered another problem with gravel in my outdoor system where I have both gravel and deep water culture tanks sharing the same water. The iron cations are attracted to the gravel, and literally sucked out of the water which caused the plants in the raft to turn yellow.
It has taken quite a bit of iron chelate to saturate the gravel.
I want to find out if expanded shale will also interfere with the Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) like the gravel or if the FE2+ will remain more available to the plants in the deep water culture.
I have recently made several blog posts about iron deficiency that may be of interest. ChicoAquaponic. I wish I had taken chemistry in school. Understanding the intricate relationships of bio chemistry has become very interesting to me.
I also expect expanded shale offers more surface area for the bacteria which is really important to me because my system is out of balance, and should have more area devoted to grow beds.
Jul 1, 2012
joe
I use the lava rock, scoria. It is quite rough on the hands. However, I never dig in it with my hands. I always use a trowel. For planting, I take two hand trowels facing each other and push them into the gravel. This creates a cavity where I insert the plant, then I remove the trowels and the trench will mostly back itself.
The gravel you have is not affecting pH? In my experiments I found Pea gravel to buffer the pH upwards. pH is really important for iron availability. I try to keep my system pH below 7, which for me means adding a lot of HCl because my tap water is 8.2 pH.
The biggest issue in AP with iron though, in my opinion, is not simply pH, but a deficiency of iron in the media. In soil there is usually abundant iron and the problem of iron deficiency in plants is high pH. In AP, there is not much iron, even if it is highly available. So it must be added. I use Iron Sulfate.
I have heard a lot of good things about expanded shale. $80/yd isn't too bad, if some of you want smaller quantities maybe you could combine your orders and get a yd.
Jul 1, 2012
Bob Campbell
I just posted this in Media Based Systems but could not find a way to link directly to my post.
II think I can find the time to pick up half a yard tomorrow. I'll let you know what I think ASAP.
Robert C. Rowe (Bob) suggested pumice so I checked a local landscape supply here in Chico, and found this. The handful below may need a little screening, but the price is right and the description says it's pH neutral!
I'd suggest looking around at your local soil suppliers
Pumice(3/8 x 1/16) Pumice is an excellent soil conditioner, as it is highly porous giving it excellent water and air holding properties.
Advantages of Using Pumice:
$28.50 ½ yd. - $55.00 per yd.
Jul 2, 2012
Jon Parr
I read through you site, very interesting that you feel the gravel sucked up the ferrous iron. Other than the visual difference of raft produce to media produce, is there any other reason you believe this? I'm not trying to be pessimistic, just making sure I understand. Media holds the gunk and the bioslime, and naturally more mineral available to the plants. I doubt the gravel you are using will be any more or less iron robbing than other medias, just my hunch. Run your iron theory by Vlad, and see if he agrees. He knows his iron chemistry.
I'm also not sure if I agree that iron caused the yellowing and chlorosis your basil exhibits looks like over-all deficiency, which may be caused by low DO under your raft (low DO causes roots to be poor at uptaking all nutrients, even if they are present in available form). Iron shows yellowing only in the newest growth, nitrogen in the oldest growth, and your basil pic was yellow forms stem to stern.
Jul 3, 2012
Bob Campbell
@Jon - It was Vlad that suggested the rock may be attracting the Iron Cations. I'm quite certain it was an iron deficiency because it cleared up immediately after using a product that actually has iron chelate in it. The first product I used had nearly imperceptible levels of FE2+. Don't use the stuff they make for aquariums.
It's probably not due to lack of DO. I have 4 air stones under the raft.
The water looks like it's boiling!
Jul 3, 2012