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Comment by Justin on April 21, 2012 at 10:15am

Great reading, quick question- I just inherited a 75 gallon tank (it's at 76 degrees with two filters (mag 350 & emp 400) and one very happy little beta. The idea is to get familiar with a species that I can use in my future aquaponics system.

So the question is, any tips/advice and who has a few starters I could pick up?Thanks guys.

Comment by Jon Parr on April 14, 2012 at 8:27am

Sad perch? SAC perch, damned autocorrect. :)

Comment by Jon Parr on April 14, 2012 at 8:24am

You are absolutely correct. DFG's "policy" is no tilapia in NorCal. And the primary reason for the "policy" is that tilapia already exist in SoCal, so no point in restricting them there. That is the most backwards way of thinking I can comprehend. DFG allows tilapia where they can survive the wilds, and bans them where they cannot. Anyway, you are correct, DFG policy is clear. The law, however, is equally clear and does not support their "policy". For DFG to enforce their "policy" which is outside the current law, is illegal and fraudulent. Sort of like a cop enforcing his own speed limit other than the posted limit, or fining red cars because he feels red cars are dangerous, or citing immigrants because he feels they shouldn't be here. Wrong an illegal, even immoral. And DFG knows it, and will tell you if you push. And try will back down. I would like some honesty and common sense.
And I'm not pushing tilapia, really. Nothing would make me happier than pulling the plug on all my heaters. I'm really hoping sad perch do well, and if they do, I won't have any non-natives on my property. In the meantime, tilapia are the best suited fish we can get for Aquaponics. And the only truly legal fish to raise without a permit (well maybe pacu or pangasius would be good too), because of the exemption that tropical fish hold in the current law.

Comment by Paul Trudeau on April 14, 2012 at 7:18am

Jon, thanks for your last two posts.  It won't be real soon that I take on approaching DFG about this stuff.  Too many other things on my plate at the moment.  Maybe later this year?  If/when I do, I'll let folks know and can certainly include your questions about Sac Perch and other natives.  If someone else decides to take on this task before I do, that'd be fine too.

So without poring over the details of the regs right now, I'll just say this from my memory of last time I did do so:  I too thought what I was reading there might be interpreted as allowing us to keep certain species of tilapia, and a district-level DFG staffer even seemed to agree.  But when he went to put in the paperwork for my permits, he was unambiguously corrected by higher-ups, in fact, by the state aquaculture coordinator at the time.  It's true there are different potential ways of interpreting what the regs say in different places, but my sense is that in the end, their clear policy is and has been that tilapia are illegal north of the Tehachapi Mountains.  Whether that's the best policy or not, and whether it is well-supported by current regs, are debatable, and Jon you bring up some very interesting points.  But I do think that's the current policy, and with all due respect, it seems like it's more or less "hearing what we want to hear" to rely on any other interpretation. 

I think the aquaponics community (or movement, if you will), is getting large and vital enough that the state would need to address our concerns if raised.  We could also enlist the assistance of traditional fish farmers in the state.  They each pay their $700 (or greater) in DFG fees every year in order to operate their businesses, and they have dealt with DFG for years.  They have an organized industry association that can be pretty effective--they just went thru a big struggle about some proposed regs and won.  They would have some knowhow and clout that could really help us.  There also could be other allies we could call on at some point if necessary. 

Comment by Jon Parr on April 13, 2012 at 11:57pm

Paul, I ask a favor. If you do visit the DFG soon, ask them their policy on keeping Sac Perch and other natives. Are they worried they will escape and repopulate native waters? Seriously, I'd like to know, and I've been reluctant to ask, afraid of the answer I suppose.

Comment by Jon Parr on April 13, 2012 at 11:53pm

So many good points, Joe, Paul and Bob. I'd like to chime in.
Paul, you can raise tilapia legally in California for hobby use, regardless of what they tell you. Ask any DFG naysayer for the specific regulation. Goldfish, Koi, and all tropical fish not listed as prohibited are legal for hobby purposes without permission or permit. Period. The regulation has a discrepancy regarding temperate fish. In one place regarding hobby exemption for closed-loop systems, it lists 'koi, goldfish, and all freshwater fish' and in another spot it lists 'koi, goldfish, and all TROPICAL freshwater fish', either way tilapia are tropical and thus legal. The real question is whether we can have temperates in Aquaponics in Cali. If you take stock in the latter verbage, then all temperates except koi and goldfish require a permit, including catfish, bluegill, crappie, sac perch, sac blackfish, etc. If you take stock in the first verbage, then all AP systems are exempt of permit requirement (I side with this one, of course :P) Paul, why do you think tilapia would cause harm during a partial year of living large? I have found no such detriment. Tilapia eat algae, plants, and detritus. They do not compete with natives in this respect. Conversely, the rest of the USA stocks tilapia every year, everywhere they can, with great results. All species thrive when tilapia are present. Tilapia prevent algae blooms and opaque water, and supply forage fish for all pond residents and birds. In the winter, they slow down long before they die, providing easy pickings for bass etc, allowing temperate predators to fatten up before the winter. And tilapia always die in our winters, ALWAYS! DFG argues that tilapia may mutate to survive the cold. Sure, they may, but they haven't yet in any portion of the world, and they have certainly had time and opportunity to do so. In this respect, tilapia are the absolute least likely invasive threat of any of our choices.

I do agree with you that DFG should be concerned with fish raised in Aquaponics. In the interest of keeping invasives out if our waters, DFG should be involved with our fish choices. But such concern is too little, too late. Only Sac perch, and trout (am I missing any) are natives worth growing, all others (bass, bluegill, green sunfish, catfish, stripers, etc) are not native and DO threaten native fish, because they can survive and compete in the wild. Bluegill alone caused the demise of sac perch. Yet DFG signs bluegill stocking permits every day, and denies tilapia it's place in aquaculture.

Joe, I'm raising sac perch, and will have fingerlings as soon as I can, but haven't grown them out yet, so no advice on growth rates. I'm told they are similar to bluegill, but a bit faster to grow and better to eat. They are feeding very well on pellets, and BSFL. So fun to watch them munch on surplus tilapia fry.

Comment by joe on April 13, 2012 at 9:00pm

I think to many hobby aquaponists worry way too much about the DFG. Worry about the DFG when you are fishing... They don't care about fish in your backyard.

That being said, Tilapia aren't the right fish for northern california, atleast not in Solano county. Too cold. Some Tilapia will survive colder temps, but they will not grow well until water temps are above 80 F, which for me only happened for a few weeks last year (last yr was cold). Trout will grow from fingerling to 12-16 inches in just 6 months. Catfish can provide the necessary waste during the summer. I suppose you could grow tilapia for the other 6 months.

I still want to find a fast growing, year round fish for our climate. Maybe the Sacramento Perch? Anybody know the grow out on them?

Comment by Paul Trudeau on April 13, 2012 at 8:46pm

I'd love to raise tilapia myself, and I bet there are some irrationalities in current regulations, but I think it's quite reasonable for the state (and aquaponics practitioners) to be cautious about a potentially hugely invasive species (or group of species) such as tilapia.  Even if it may be too cold for them to winter over in much of the state, they could potentially do a lot of damage in one warm season.  And I believe it's pretty much guaranteed that some folks would release them into surrounding waters, even if most folks wouldn't. 

My experience with DFG has been that it's hard to get a consistent story from different staff, but I have heard that they are aware of the growing popularity of aquaponics and of the desire of many to raise tilapia and that they may be trying to come up with a way to accommodate those trends in their regs.  At some point, since I live walking distance from their HQ, I'd like to resume pursuing the issue with them.  And, for those of you who are also near by, you might consider doing as well.  I think it would be a service to the aquaponics community that we are uniquely situated to carry out.

Comment by Bob Campbell on April 13, 2012 at 7:59pm

Thanks for the feed back. It's good to be part of this group!

I'm still learning the ropes and assessing the profitability of aquaponics on a larger scale.  To be honest I've had some problems with my plants, and have a ways to go before investing in a large scale operation..

Maybe in the mean time DF&G will see that commercial operations and those with a serious passion should be permitted.  It makes no sense to prohibit something that can be done on a hobby level by anyone willing to find find a source of Tilapia.  After all it's just a day's drive to southern Cal,

I've invested several thousand into this research, and as a serious fish farmer I'd be a lot less likely to toss any fish whether it be Channel Cat or Tilapia into the wild than a hobbyist. I think DF&G is afraid of the wrong group of people, but if that's what they want then if and when I decide to go commercial I will move back to Arizona where labor, and land cost less, and the government stays out of your face.

As a California General Building Contractor the government bureaucrats a never ceases to astound me with their dim witted rules. This is just more of the same stupidity.

Comment by Jon Parr on April 13, 2012 at 4:35pm

Bob, write DFG back and ask for the regulation prohibiting tilapia. They will back down if you're hobby or personal use, because their policy is not supported by law. For commercial aquaculture, meaning raising fish for human consumption, they DO have authority. They can deny a request on a whim, or approve it on a bribe, the choice is yours. The outfit Fishy is citing is either under the radar so far, or appropriate bribes have been placed, IMO

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