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Comment by Dave & Yvonne Story on December 19, 2011 at 5:02pm

yes, the moving of plants is much easier in hydorton or aquaponic stones. I take it one step further, I use homemade containers. I made a mistake with papaya last summer, I had one plant in a small container and one free to root out.. the root-out had roots over half of my grow-bed. If you want to know more, join Local Roots' tour

Comment by Dave & Yvonne Story on December 19, 2011 at 4:54pm

I got started using pumps and info from Desert Pet. Ben was a tremendous help.

as always, Stephane, Thank you. great info on stones and duckweed and etc .. I am in for a Tour anytime, I will make the time.

I did have temp swings during the summer, but I did keep my tanks insulated. This winter, the heaters are keeping my temp level.

Comment by Local Roots Aquaponics on December 19, 2011 at 4:36pm

Sorry to be so sporadic posting here, this month is very busy for us.  I wanted to add my 2 cents to these discussions though.  Hopefully it will be useful to some:

Duckweed in Tucson can be bought from Desert Pet on 22nd near Swan.  They have plenty of the 'normal', small duckweed, though you will also find some of the larger 'swollen' duckweed, or lemna gibba, in there as well.  Some people prefer the swollen kind as it can be a little easier to manage.

Keep in mind that duckweed grows best off of straight ammonia, so the best place to grow it in an integrated system is right after the fish tank, i.e. before the biofilter.  I think Kobus had a nice post on this in the Forums here a while ago.

Raising BSF larvae in the summer here is really really easy, and fish LOVE them (fresh or frozen, just chop them up first).  We have a video on youtube about harvesting them from our compost piles, we do it a little differently than most:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omDMGMUry-I

I have determined that IBCs (food grade!!) are the best value for high quality plastic tanks, hands down.  Search Tucson craigslist and you should find a guy named Patrick selling them at a great price, I think they are something like $140 delivered (in Tucson).  Double check this though as prices may have changed.

You want to be absolutely sure you know that the IBC plastic is food grade and that the IBC only transported food grade materials.  Even the slightest trace of something toxic can wreak havoc.  You will want to rinse the IBCs very well before using them in any case.

If you shade your tanks in the summer, say with 50% shade cloth, you shouldn't ever get to water temps above 90 or 95.  Many fish can handle this, though plants don't like it.

When thinking about heating and chilling your system, consider raising fish that don't require anything special -- like koi or goldfish, or if you want to eat your fish, channel catfish (no heater required).  Be sure whatever you choose can handle both the yearly swings in temperature, and the (large) daily swings we get in AZ.  Our systems change by nearly 10 degrees during the day (especially in the summer), and this can really stress some fish.  Stressed fish leads to sick fish.

About the systems tour, we are indeed organizing one for Tucson.  I hope somebody will organize one for the Phoenix area too.   Perhaps we could eventually combine both tours for an AZ Systems Tour (and maybe get Northern AZ involved as well!).

Finally, about media choices, do be careful what you get and test the media before going big.  Salt river rock is a great local choice but it does contain a lot of rocks that buffer pH, so it can be difficult or even impossible to get down to 6.8 with this media.  If you plant native varieties though this is much less of a problem, as native plants (or plants that have been proven to grow well here) tolerate alkaline soils very well.

I have recently decided to fill our next system with lava rock, instead of the AP Stones Dave has mentioned.  The Stones are about 4 times more expensive and not nearly as durable, I am afraid they will break down too much over time.  Other than that though I really, really like the Stones.  I may eventually fill a system with these and compare to the lava, over time.  The lava is relatively cheap (I should get ~500 gallons for ~$160 delivered from D&D Materials in Tucson, on 22nd) and they should hold up much better over time.

When buying lava you want to be sure you know the source, as some has been used as filter material in heavy industry and can be contaminated with heavy metals (that stuff is sold as aggregate, to put under concrete jobs etc).  I checked about the stuff from D&D Materials and was told it comes straight from the mine (near Sho Low, AZ!), so I think it will be okay.  I am testing a batch on some fish now and they seem fine.  I am about to order the full amount and will have my water, fish and veggies from that system tested for contaminates as soon as I can.  I expect they will be fine, since the fish aren't dying now.  Kinda like a canary in the coal mine.

I love seeing all of the interest in aquaponics here in AZ.  It is really encouraging. Please keep up the excellent discussions.  I will check in when I can.

-Stéphane

www.localrootsaquaponics.com

Comment by Sheri Schmeckpeper on December 19, 2011 at 2:54pm

LOL! You are enthusiastic, Mark! But then, it's a very exciting venture and we all share your enthusiasm. Bob & I use hydroton (expanded clay balls), which is about $35-$39/bag. It's lightweight, holds in moisture, is great for bacteria growth and easy to work with. I wouldn't pay more for any rock than I pay for hydroton.

Most rock from Pioneer will be around $50/ton I believe, so it will probably be less per cf than hydroton. But rock is very heavy, so you have to weigh out the benefits of rock over lighter material. (Pun intended) You also want rock that will be bacteria-friendly. Shipping across country is probably a very expensive prospect! If you go with rock, Pioneer should have what you need.

River rock is not necessarily going to contain lime. It depends on what created the rock. Oceanic rock is often made from critter shells & full of calcium & lime, but AZ river rock is often lime free granite or quartz. Whatever you get, wash it out thoroughly and set it in the sun for a while, when we get our sun back. The sun is a great sanitizer.

Our worms are in our kitchen. So far they don't seem as enthused over coffee as I am.

What 90 class?

Comment by Dave & Yvonne Story on December 19, 2011 at 2:29pm

rocks are too heavy for me. I like the Aquaponic Stones or the hydroton.

Comment by Mark on December 19, 2011 at 12:36pm

Okay, I try to rein in the type A drive and seemingly ridiculous excitement I have about this, but to no avail. I have found a source for expanded shale but in NY state. I am having them price two tons of material drop shipped to AZ. I understand that Sylvia is a distributor for a place and will also do large shipments. Based on the smaller package costs I saw it might be worth a large purchase to be shared with others to reduce cost. They will screen the 3/4" material with a 3/16" screen to remove a lot of the fine material. I am also sourcing some shale locally that I can have crushed and sized appropriately. I have two questions:
1. What is a good price to pay, say per cubic foot or cubic yard? Any local river rock is likely to contain limestone bit this material would not be kiln fired...
2. What is the value added to the media by the kiln process? sterilization?

The shipping cost will be the problem from back east. A "1 ton" bag is actually 1.5 CY which is 40 CF. That converts to about 50 pounds per square foot if your grow bed media is 12" deep. This is for a 3/4" material.

I have a big problem paying to truck grow bed media for an AP system across the country. Perhaps I should just start bringing in fresh lobster every week... Kind of defeats the purpose.

I am also going to a place called Pioneer that stocks piles and piles of rock to see what I can find nearby in Gilbert. I guess I should take a little vinegar with me to test.

In the meantime, while 18-month-old Michael naps, it is time to move my worm Factory into the shed and dot first ever harvest.
Does anyone know if too much coffee is bad for worms or does it help them like it helps me until they try to do too much and have to hit the worm spa for a while!?

Thanks! Anyone going to that 90 class on Wednesday?

Comment by Dave & Yvonne Story on December 19, 2011 at 11:57am

we need to put something together for a AP tour down here. I think someone said they were going to do it..

I want to see somethings.. I love the thought of Sheri's greenhouse.. and their setup.. I wanted to say something funny.. but in email I might not pull it off.. but I do respect how you use craigslist.

Comment by Sheri Schmeckpeper on December 19, 2011 at 11:50am

Dave Sch, we'll take not of that place in Chino Valley. Maybe Bob & i'll take a road trip one of these days. :) Thanks for sharing the info about it.

Comment by Sheri Schmeckpeper on December 19, 2011 at 11:49am

Dave's right, there's no right way and no wrong way, except if it's not working. :)  But every one of us is doing things differently because each of our setups fits our lifestyles and our personalities. 

We have a tank sunk in the ground & one above ground. Our system is in a greenhouse made of PVC and plastic. We used a watercooler in the summer & kept the air below 100, which most plants can handle. The in-ground tank stayed a consistent 85, the above ground tank varied between 85 & 93 in the heat of the summer. Now we have one 200w heater in the in-ground tank and two 200w heaters in the above ground, and are keeping the temps around 70. We use timers & pumps for flood & drain w/home-made filters. Very simple.

We got IBCs that were used for transporting inert products. One for free, but it took a lot of cleaning. Scavenged materials are a risk, but we've scavenged rock & other things. You just have to be careful and know the risks. Using goldfish to prime the cycling is a risk, too, because they can carry disease, but we did it. We were just careful & never put all our eggs in one basket, so to speak. Be wary of chemicals, both surface and permeated into the materials.

If you're patient, you can find deals for things on Craigslist. It doesn't hurt to start smaller anyway to learn the ropes, then expand as resources reveal themselves and money becomes available. You can start with 50 gallon barrels then expand to IBCs. It can take up to a year for your fish to get to eating size anyway. 6 months bare minimum.

BTW, we raise most of our own meat, our own eggs, and most of our fruit & veggies. Our grocery bill is around $100/month for my husband & me, mostly for grains. And coffee, of course. It does cost to grow things, but we sell fry and eggs to cover those costs. The benefits to your kids in nutrients, experiences, and education will be immeasurable!

Comment by Dave & Yvonne Story on December 19, 2011 at 11:37am

Daid, I saw your system on Phil's webpage. I sent him an email early this morning. he replied that he has people who sell tanks here in Tucson. wants me to call him.

I will mention your name, but I am waiting for a reply from the duckweed people in Oro Valley. do 2 "honey do" things with one trip.

thanks,

Dave

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