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Comment by Larry on July 21, 2012 at 6:24am

very nice reading Vlad thank you for the link. but that study just seems to make me agrree that my WAG( Wild ass Guess) was correct. Yes the study does say they were not sure if it was the salts or Nitrates that killed the fish. but farther down they did it without salts with the same results. conclution also states the Nitrates affect the blood and cause the weaking of the fish ammune systems. also the test was done with Bass. We all believe the Talapia are stouter or more tolerant to change as we humas are also tolernat to changes. but a bad enviroment will still make us sick and can kill us.

Comment by Vlad Jovanovic on July 21, 2012 at 1:07am

@Larry or anyone really...Can you please link any credible study (not a web site selling products) that makes a case for nitrate toxicity in tilapia (or any fish)? I've not found anything to indicate that nitrates are really normally a concern (especially with tilapia). Other than studies and RAS articles (...things like this one...http://www.atlantech.ca/public/articles/Water%20Quality.PDF...) concluding basically, something to the effect of "prolonged exposure to excessive nitrates can lower immune response"...Excessive meaning 1000ppm or more and prolonged meaning 3 or more months. Even blue-gill, trout, bass, seem fine until the 500ppm range...

80ppm-100ppm nitrates really shouldn't ever be a problem?

@John, since #4 is probably the biggest option, how about the scoria? Much of the lanscaping scoria sold was first used in industrial waste water processing before being rinsed and sold to the BigBox stores, or lanscaping supply companies....(It is pretty good at accumulating heavy metals)...Unless the handle of your bucket was galvanized, it probably wasn't the bucket handle. Your problem might not be metal related at all. But metal toxicity does seem to have been the cause of many a 'mysterious' fish kill off...You can of coarse buy a kit and test your water for this, and confidently either rule it out or confirm. 

Fish can be fine for months, then start dropping like flies as the accumulation of metals in the bodies starts to take its toll...who knows?

At any rate, I, and all of us I'm sure, would hate to see something like this happen to you again, so it might be good to use this unfortunate incident as an opportunity. Start confidently ruling out things one by one, even though it might be time consuming, in order to get to the bottom of it, so you can try to make sure it doesn't ever happen again... 

Comment by Larry in Casa Grande on July 21, 2012 at 12:11am

Hang in there John, we are all watching your progress and recovery with great interest. I bet you would sleep a lot better if you knew what caused all this. Guess what? I would to :-)

Sherri.

I am getting a little excited over here. Finally I have some Nitrates kicking in. In the 40 to 80 PPM range. My nitrites still seem way to high to me but I think I will do a 30% - 50% water change tomorrow.

Still this is the first time I have seen any significant Nitrates. I hope the water change does not slow down thier growth. It kinda feels like I am taking their food away.

I think I am going to need a shade over my plants, in just two days of direct sunlight my little plants I put in there have just about all baked to brown, very sad.

And more worrisome is the fact that last week just for fun, I took 3 seeds out of each of my wifes seed packets and just randomly punch them into the grow beds to where I thought the water line was. To my astonishment not only have some of them sprouted, they are easily 10 times bigger than the sprouts coming out of my wifes dirt based nursery that she planted the next day. I don't know why, as we are just now seeing some serious nitrates. But it is fun. Do you think I should work on a shade next? Today I just jamed an unbrella handle in the media so it stands up over the sprouts.That will keep the sun rays off of them. But now that I think about it. That umbrella has a varnished wood handle and steel shaft sank into the growbed!!!!! Visions of Johns nightmare?

Comment by Larry on July 20, 2012 at 11:02pm

@john after reading through all the post to catch up I will put my bet on "Nitrates at ~100ppm.   Nitrates have been high ever since I did fishless cycling several months ago.   The reading has never really dropped" Even these are toxic to your fish and will kill them. It will not kill them as fast as the ammonia. But every fish place in the vally seems to say it is toxic to the fish. IMHO you did not have enough plants to eat up your nitrates. Remember Aquaponics is all about balance.

Comment by Sheri Schmeckpeper on July 20, 2012 at 10:53pm

@Larry, good to hear from you again! Darn chickens. Watermelon would be very nice on these hot days!

Comment by Sheri Schmeckpeper on July 20, 2012 at 10:51pm

@John, I'm pretty sure the rubber band didn't do it. :)  I opt for #2 or #4. I wouldn't totally rule out some infection, either. It seems odd that the bucket handle would cause that much damage so instantly, since it was in there so long, but anything's possible.

I could see a 40% or even a 50% water change since they were dying. And repeated the next day or two if the deaths continue. We've done some pretty severe changes when we've thought the fish were in danger. We had to weigh the chlorine concern against than the toxicity of the water, and the tough tilapia handled it. But if it were a disease, that wouldn't have made a difference. Who knows?

Life is full of learning experiences, some good, some not so good. I'm glad you're sticking with it. You'll be ready and running for a great fall garden!

Comment by Bob Campbell on July 20, 2012 at 9:45pm

I should have said "Copy Image Location"  not Link.

Comment by Bob Campbell on July 20, 2012 at 9:31pm

@Larry -How to include a picture

Comment by Larry on July 20, 2012 at 8:41pm

Well long time since my last post.  I just had my first batch of fish hatch about 13 July best count is about 30ish (to small and fast to count) My system is doing well havesting Celery and cucumbers and regular onions so far. had watermellon hanging over the side but GRRRRR darn chickens found them and ate them along  with some of the rubarb they could reach. Boom new Temp fence up.

Just posted a few pict of  my system not sure how to link them

Comment by John Malone on July 20, 2012 at 1:27pm

@Sheri

I took a jar of water down to PetSmart and the chap tending the fish tanks there was very kind in checking it out.   

His readings seemed to be on a par with mine.  pH at 6.8, ammonia at 0.5ppm,  nitrites at 0, nitrates at safe but high level.   He recommended a 40% water change, which is what you'd expect from an aquarium keeper when the nitrates get high.

So, nothing surprising there, and my first theory out the window.

The next obvious theory would be some sort of contamination.  Possible culprits are:

1) Metal handle on the bucket.

2) Plastic part of the bucket.

3) Broken rubber band at the bottom of the tank.

4) Something else I haven't thought of yet.

Thanks for thinking this through with me.

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