Comment

Comment by Dr. George B. Brooks, Jr. on July 24, 2012 at 2:38pm

I personally have no concerns. Sodium thiosulfate is a very broad range and very effective detoxifying agent and is the core of most if not every dechlorinating agent you buy in the hydroponics or aquarium store. They even use it to dechlorinate public swimming pools when they overdo it with the chlorine. So far the only side effect I can find are in medicine were for example, some that may occur when it is injected directly into the blood stream as an antidote for cyanide poisoning. Beyond that nothing. Since it is a salt, it disassociates into Sodium Chloride (table salt,), Sulfur, Sulfur dioxide and water, so does not bioaccumulate (no residue).  Also for aquaponics we use very little of it. There was a report from the 1980's that suggested that it could have a negative effect on larval freshwater prawns there was no follow up. The Pesticide Action Network which also looks into these things reports no toxic effects or can find no data:

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC34439

On the other side of the coin, there is always the possibility of unknown effects. Secondly and more importantly, as we learned in bio-toxicology class (great course in the U of A med school), all things can be toxic when used improperly including water and oxygen. So, it is best to err of the side of caution if you have a concern and not use the product. 

Comment by Chris George on July 24, 2012 at 1:54pm

also @ Dr. Brooks, I would be concerned about ingesting plants that have might contain residue of sodium thiosulfate, what are your thoughts??

Comment by Sheri Schmeckpeper on July 24, 2012 at 1:46pm

Thanks, Chris! I'm so happy you're volunteering! Love the sales pitch, too! :)

Dr. George, are there any negative effects of sodium thiosulfate? The SF page goes on to say that chloramine could affect reverse osmosis equipment, yet RO might remove it, It also says, "The most common problem associated with chloraminated water on household plumbing, pipes, and water heaters is found to occur in domestic applications such as toilet flapper valves, water heater hoses, and some sprinkler system diaphragms."

Here's the link to the SF site:http://www3.goywp.com/sites/upi/cusi/midpen_rev1/view/67. I suppose a visit to the SRP website is in order. 

Comment by Chris George on July 24, 2012 at 1:20pm

Oops, edited out the date of Sheri's class, August 15th, it's a Wednesday night.

Comment by Chris George on July 24, 2012 at 1:19pm

@Sheri - I volunteered to be your class assistant for the VPA Intro to SF Gardening class ;-)  

@all - I know we all 'water' garden here, but perhaps some or many of you 'dirt' garden too, Sheri probably already posted it, but she is teaching a class, "Introduction to Square Foot Gardening", at the Tempe Transportation Center, 6:30pm to 8pm, the class is sponsored by the Valley Permaculture Alliance and the fee for the class is $15.  Take the opportunity to meet Sheri (and Bob) in person (if you haven't already done so) and learn all about SF gardening, those silly and numerous water changes are the perfect reason to start a garden in a SF garden raised bed, you already have the nutrient rich water, and you know how to build a grow bed right?  Don't waste that great water on bermuda grass, grow yourself something you can eat.....

Comment by Jeremy K on July 24, 2012 at 1:13pm

John I would love to post pics but this site and my iPad do not like each other when it comes to posting photos

Comment by Dr. George B. Brooks, Jr. on July 24, 2012 at 1:12pm

Sodium thiosulfate (Na₂S₂O₃) will neutralize chlorine and chloramine. You can buy it at Chem Lab Supply (Ask for Tom - 602-220-9011) in Phoenix or any laboratory chemical store. Here is an online calculator on how to use it. 

http://www.cnykoi.com/calculators/calcdechlor.asp

Comment by Sheri Schmeckpeper on July 24, 2012 at 1:11pm

Scale Update

Apparently I have mealy bugs, which are related to scale, but aren't as hard to get rid of. I'm grateful for that!

When I first found the infestation, one plant was covered in them and another had a few. I sprayed heavily with worm compost tea. Two days later the numbers were greatly reduced on the first plant, but more were on the second plant, and a third had some as well. I sprayed heavily again.

That was two days ago. Today the third plant appears to be free of them, and the other two are very reduced. I have to make more tea today, so tomorrow I'll spray again. I haven't found any more yellowing leaves, so I think I'm disrupting them enough to prevent further damage.

While these plants aren't in my AP system, I've been spraying everything in there, too. I was seeing some white flies & white fly damage before spraying, but they appear to be gone now. It's nice to know that there's something that works so well that we can use in AP!

The only thing I've seen since spraying is worm damage to my basil. They're easy to pick off once you find them, though.

Comment by Kent Biswanger on July 24, 2012 at 1:10pm

@Jeremy That sounds like one heck of a filter how many fish are you growing out? I'd love to see some pictures. Since my plants have really taken off my water has cleared up and with the number of fish in my system now I don't think any additional filtration will be necessary. I plan to increase the fish population as soon as my breeders get busy so filtration may become necessary.

Comment by Sheri Schmeckpeper on July 24, 2012 at 1:01pm

@John, that's really good information from API! We had our kit outdoors by the system for a while, but the ammonia's 1 bottle turned brownish. I'm not sure if it's affected the testing, but it didn't seem to. The API email makes me feel a little better about it. I also came across a kit about, oh, 15+ years old, and compared the results to my current kit. The PH was dried up and the ammonia (which was only a single bottle) may have tested accurately, but immediately coagulated. Nitrates and nitrites tested right on the mark. Amazing, huh?

I noticed about a week ago that there is about .5ppm ammonia in the tap water here, too. This is what I learned from the OLD API ammonia test kit instructions and the San Fran water district website:

Chlorine is added to kill bacteria & viruses, but can combine with disinfectant by-products which produce THM's, which are suspected carcinogens. So then they add ammonia to combat these. But the ammonia and chlorine combine into chloramine, which can be deadly to some fish. Chloramine is more stable than chlorine, so it takes 2-3 days to break up, "even after heavy aeration." The San Fran page says they're adding chloramine because it's so much better than chlorine. Apparently the EPA and California Dept of Health Svc are pushing for chloramine.

Then it says, "Kidney dialysis patients, aquarium owners, and businesses or industries that use water in their treatment process will need to remove the chloramines prior to use...People and animals that do not live in water can safely drink chloraminated water because the digestive process neutralizes chloramine before it enters the bloodstream.  Two methods for dialysis patients and aquarium owners to use to neutralize chloramine are: 1) A granular-activated carbon-filtration system specifically designed to remove Chloramine, or 2) A conditioner or additive that contains a dechloraminating chemical for both Ammonia and chlorine."

I don't know if this now applies to us or not. I haven't heard anything, but they didn't tell us they were switching water a couple months ago when the PH dropped either.

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