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Comment by Jim Fisk on February 13, 2013 at 8:23am

Great honest discussion here. Love it. I would love to see a companion discussion along the lines of "what have your top 3 challenges been so far and how long have you been actively growing using AP and how have you overcome (or not ) those obstacles.

On another note, here at 3000ft. in the Smoky Mtns. our days are getting longer and the seedlings are responding accordingly and I haven't had to heat the gh for 2 days now.

My 3 challenges at the 7 mos. of actual growing stage have been fungus gnats, white flies, and fish deaths. Still working on all 3 with constantly improving results. Have hit the low iron stage as well but that is fairly easy compared to the first 3. I could write a book on just these 3 but I'll end it here for now. I will say that I have bought up every fly tape in the entire area which is not saying much due to a lack of them around here in the Winter and fly deaths are reported in the billions. Lady bugs are a big help but having purchased "300" I sure don't see many around and they aren't showing up on the tapes. Next time I'll be sure to count them if I can figure out a way

I should add on the plus side that we have been enjoying delicious truly organic meals all Winter long from our AP system.

Comment by Jon Parr on February 13, 2013 at 8:19am

That is awesome. Thanks Bob. I'm pretty lucky with my moderate climate here.

Comment by Vlad Jovanovic on February 13, 2013 at 12:31am

Thanks Bob. Interesting. I'm about 1200 feet or so higher from Belgrade, so our weather up in the hills is a bit different from those guys down in the valley. Cool in for though. Thanks for compiling that.

Comment by Bob Campbell on February 13, 2013 at 12:02am

I'd like to say thank you to Rob, Nate, Vlad, & Jon.  You have all posted some very helpful information. 

I'm feeling pretty confident about this next season.  I've got tomatoes, peppers, and marigolds seedlings started.  The broccoli, Brussel sprouts, and winter lettuce I started in the Fall are looking very good. 

Here's a comparison to the different conditions we each grow in.

Comment by Nate Storey on February 12, 2013 at 12:36pm

yeah, we're entering the sweet spot too.  our production is really picking up.  Just in time for our new greenhouse range. . .well, I guess it's a high tunnel until we get heat to it. . .  In any case, our greenhouse space is doubling,  and I'm ready to get growing.  Some long spring and summer hours are going to be sweet!

Comment by Rob Torcellini on February 12, 2013 at 12:15pm

Yes, all good points.  During our winters, if you check the charts for solar power, the average direct light we get per day is around 2.5 - 3 hours.  That includes overall averages of sun and cloudy days.  Maybe we can get some of the engineers at Monsanto to engineer a 3 hour lettuce.  

I also have some more trees to remove which should help out next year.  I'm already noticing that the plants are starting to grow a bit better now that we're getting some more light here.

Comment by Nate Storey on February 12, 2013 at 12:03pm

Hi Rob, 

One thing to mention is picking short and long daylength varieties.  Our long daylength varieties we use during the summer will often give us grown-out heads in around 6 weeks total during the longest days of summer (3 weeks from planting to seedling, 3 weeks from transplant to harvest). During the winter we're on a 6 week - 7 week production period (post transplant) to get full heads (8 hr daylength).  Anyway, variety choices can really help overcome some of the daylength problems in Northern climates, although you're right- there are many crazy claims about growing a 58 day lettuce in 35 days without artificial lighting. . . A 58 day lettuce is just that, a 58 day lettuce.  If you're in an area where the daylength is 8 hrs winter light, it's more like an 85 day lettuce. . . :)

Comment by Jon Parr on February 10, 2013 at 7:05am

Agreed, and I see your point. There may be other ways to look at it, too, but I see your point. I agree that a commercial class should be taught by commercially successful people if possible, but the same logic does not carry over in other trades, does it? Typically, trade schools are taught by teachers, not business professionals. In fact, often times teachers become teachers because they are not successful at their specialty, or not suited for it, but they may know properly how it's done. AP is fledgling, someday there will be curriculum to teach it with some amount of uniformity. I'm not making excuses for the claims of easy commercial success, not at all. And I think there is a lot of misleading information out there, and down right "wrong" information out there. But I think the same can be said of most any comparable analogy.

When it all comes down to it, farming is farming, no matter how you go about it. It's hard work, with minimal monetary rewards. Even if you bank on the optimum results, and even if you get those optimal results with consistency, it's still just a commodity with a lot of competition. What I find most interesting, commercially speaking, is the lack of interest in Aquaponics among farmers who are already farmers. Aquaponics seems to attract zealots from every walk of life, except farmers. Hydroponics has certainly carved its niche into commercial farming, but I don't see any veteran farmers on this site, and no commercial farms making the switch. There must be more to it than being stubborn or old school. Hmmmm.

Comment by Bob Campbell on February 10, 2013 at 1:21am

Classes are fine I only meant to make the point that classes, kits and endorsements are required for many aquaponics growers to make ends meet.  I'm also under the impression that some commercial classes are being taught by people who do not operate a profitable aquaponics farm. 

Many videos that promote aquaponics neglect to mention the difficulties which only experience can prevent.   All you have to do is read the posts on this site to see that many people have a lot of difficulty with aquaponics, When they discover that it's not so easy they spend even more money on classes, books, kits, nutrients, fish food, test kits, filters and other paraphernalia sold by the same people that promoted the idea that aquaponics is easy and can  provide an income.  Some videos will tell you the only requirement beyond food is a spoonful of chelated iron now and then.  .

It's been difficult, but I believe I too can grow produce with a respectable Brix, for about the same cost as my local market, and I'm eager to show people how it's done, but I feel that there is a lack of honesty about the learning curve and the wide variety of problems, and unanticipated expenses that are bound to show up.

I was feeling too much resentment when I wrote that post on my blog, and will rewrite it to better reflect my concerns.  I would not want to discourage others, but I feel they should know the obstacles too.   

Comment by Jon Parr on February 9, 2013 at 12:35am

On your site, Bob, you dis aquaponics classes because of hype. I haven't seen the hype or false claims you speak of, but I really don't doubt they are there. Six months ago, I would never have considered going to an aquaponics class, especially not for the outrageous price tags. As luck had it, I was invited to attend one for a very large discount. Well, I couldn't pass that up, so I went. The class sucked, and sucked big time. A total waste of money as far as the instruction went, and the names on the venue were big names. I learned that I knew more than all of them put together, and new points for me could be counted on one hand. Now, total beginners were probably overwhelmed with the very basic training, and happy for the class. Honestly, I didn't really expect to learn a lot, but I did expect to learn and see some new stuff. Now, don't let me bring you down on classes here, because I actually had a great time. I was surrounded by people of the same interest, and not much to do after hours but talk AP and share experiences (well, not entirely true, ask me about drunken wheel-chair races at Epcot sometime). I learned a TON from the students at that class. A ton. And so much new and innovative stuff. So, even though it didn't come from the class coordinators, I did have a great trip, learned boatloads, and no regrets. 

After that I got to go to the AP conference in Denver, and the party kept rolling. Great speeches and breakout sessions, great company, great pub and live music. Again, I learned boatloads, and made some great contacts. Glen Martinez and Natalie ended up coming to Santa Cruz afterwards and stayed with us for three days, again teaching me tons. 

Not much later, I got to go to another class under favorable conditions, and it was actually a very good class (which is saying something). Still, I learned the most from the students, and had a thoroughly great time.

I never expected to go to a class, let alone teach one, but that's how things work out sometimes. If the hype you hear of seems misleading, perhaps question if maybe it is true, and something you are doing in aquaponics is incorrect, or not optimum. The notion of 4 week lettuce is not hype, not anywhere near it. A farm in San Diego that was very well designed gets full heads in 3 weeks in the summer, and no more than 6 weeks in the winter. I saw it with my own eyes, and video-taped it. I think I was there in June, and they had 6-8 week old basil that was easily a couple of pounds each, and over 2' high, way way too big, and starting to flower. Now it certainly helps to be in SoCal, but it shouldn't be too hard to duplicate in NorCal. I personally plan on 6 week average grow-out, and we shall see how that ends up (If I ever get this bloody greenhouse up). And yes, that is growout only. It's a pure waste of space, IMO, to plant seeds directly in a raft. That's like putting solar panels in the basement. Raft space is valuable,  don't waste 3 weeks on a seedling. I plant 392 cells in a 13" x 26" tray. That 2 sq ft tray expands to 160 sq ft of raft. No-brainer there.

Anyway, classes, even lousy ones, are worth it if you are interested in aquaponics and wish learn more. Most of us on this forum have learned without them, self included, but the classes I attended were an over-all great experience.

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