Making your own feed

@Jon, not exactly (can't tell if you were being sarcastic). Nice picture though, definately not as revolting as stuff from BYAP.

Now I'm gonna have to go search byap just to see what you're talking about, Eric. Thanks. And I was just about to turn in for the night

I was just making note that the solid fish waste if sent directly into the duckweed bed can make a really nasty stinky anaerobic mess.

TCLynx

if the original calculation is valid and the water is 6 in deep, then we are talking about 18,000 gallons of water under this duckweed.  that is a lot of volume to absorb the nutrients and there will be slow recirc movement. 

i am considering pulverizing the waste before it gets to the duckweed so breakdown is fast and solids buildup minimized

the point is to grow duckweed as fast and efficiently as possible and stinky mess  must be engineered out

Marty, you might want to research bio-digesters then as a way to break down the waste quickly and hopefully keep the solids from interfering with the growth of duckweed.

Great conversation folks!

I must butt in here. I think bio digesters are wonderful and have a place in home/ farm life but I'm not sure I agree about using it to mitigate fish solids, which will eventually end up in the soil garden. What I did was send it to those that love it most..my earthworms. I have a piece of geo textile or landscape fabric that covers the top of my 50 gal drum filter/ bio reactor. Incoming water is splashed onto a block of granite, aerating the water and breaking up the larger particles. These particles are quickly gobbled up by the earthworms providing a smashing smorgasbord for the colonies of microbes. And out comes highly usable nutrients for whatever plants one choose to grow.

Although it is more troublesome, I believe in using a variety of feed inputs vs mono-crop. It is relatively easy to keep fish alive but to provide a feed that truly enhances their well being, I believe requires diversity. In my experience. It is mostly about pegging the protein level one desires to give their fish at different stages in their growth cycle, provided you use natural products as input.

As for what type of form you choose to feed your fish, whether floating or sinking depends on what kind of fish you choose to raise. Feed mills that make floating pellets are about twice the price compared to ordinary pellet mills, esp for smaller mills. The main problem I think independent feed makers face is how to dry the initial stock. I believe a dry stock is necessary to increase the potency of the feed. To me, feeding raw/ unprocessed duckweed would be more like eating salad rather than steak.

@ Jon: Way to go man! Rabbit/ fish AP is a wonderful choice and example of integrated bio systems for urban/ peri-urban food production...as long as you can buy pelleted food for dem bunnies. Which brings me back to making our own feed.

Unless we do it purely as a hobby where time, energy and money are not true factors, it is probably impractical for most with clear water aquaculture to make pelleted feed...unless there is enough demand where some sore of feed co-op is formed. This isn't said to discourage anyone, just my opinion at present. I believe we should start a chart so we can have at hand information so each of us can build our feed formulas according to what we have available in our local environments. What commercial/ semi commercial operation around you produces organic "waste"? What can you buy or grow and process relatively cheaply? 

There has to be a source of input before we can withdraw. Algae, duckweed are great but where do they get their feed from. How many solar Jules of sunlight does it require to produce one gram of flesh? At present, feed is the crux that prevents AP to become sustainable. Again greenwater AP is about as natural and efficient as one can imagine, however, there still needs to be a continuous, low cost input source.

Oh BTW, I have a wonderful bio digester for sale if anyone is interested. It'll cost around $700 plus shipping from Seattle. Duel purpose pellet mills start around $2,000. Floating mills @ $4,000 and up.

Duckweed can be grown in two-inch trays instead of six inches, reducing your volume tremendously. Land area can be more efficient by growing them in stacked trays.

Yes pulverizing is a good idea, esp. if we can do it without using extra energy. However, it is also important for something to eat it (worms) to make it more soluble before it goes into and grow situation. I don’t know what your setup is like so can’t really comment but in general, the filter material should be porous enough to allow water to flow yet keep the particles out until they are eroded in small particles that will eventually be so small or completely broken down and passed through the filter system.

______________

Like I said before. It is best if we can find local sources of low cost organic input to determine what our best option would be. Meal worms, pill bugs, grasshoppers, crickets, little fish, waterborne grubs and larva are all good options to increase protein content.So what do you have lots of? Grass clippings, grains, surplus fish tanks, animal manures, food system byproducts, kitchen waste?

You might want to increase your symbiotic cycle to add another animal crop like Jon does to maximize the nute usage in his rabbit - fish - veggie system. We use cow urine  to supply our greenwater ponds. By doing this we reduce our feed cost by 4/5ths. In other words, we only feed our fish one pound of feed where we use to feed five pounds of feed. We could stop feeding our fish provided we reduce the population. So we use our feed to increase production and just to make sure they have the full range of minerals and vitamins. This year, instead of running our fish water through huge algae scrubs and filters before it goes through DWC in PVC pipes, we are running it directly to our raised wicking beds before it circulates back to our ponds.

I like the vermi-digester idea there Carey, I think I'm doing something sort of like that.  Just kinda by accident I have an overflow that goes through a big bin of filter material and the worms have totally gone nuts in the filter material.

Carey,

  if you consider that my main goal with the fish waste is to grow duckweed, then would you still compost the waste before it went to the duckweed pond?

The duckweed wants the ammonia waste from the fish, the solids are not necessarily a benefit in the duckweed until they are converted to ammonia and other minerals.  I think Carey's vermi-digester or something along those lines between the fish tank and the duckweed tanks could be very helpful so you are not sending goopy solids directly to the duckweed and you can have worms work on the goop while also adding extra aeration to the water since duckweed does like aerated water.

Thanks TC.

Yes Marty, TC has the right idea. I would process or mineralize the solids but not compost them as in traditional soil composting. The microbes in the worm guts and in the perlite break down all those solids into usable nutrients that plants can use.

I thought I posted a pic of my filter but can't seem to find it. Must have done it in one of my lucid dreams...hehe.

I am a strong believer in aeration so my layers of filter materials are separated with one inch air gaps, suspended by plastic boards with holes drilled in and a piece of  4mm landscape fabric. The first layer I already described~ splash rock on landscape fabric. Under that is about a foot of assorted course crushed rock/ gravel, landscape fabric, plastic board, air gap, a foot of perlite, landscape fabric, plastic board, air gap, another foot of perlite, landscape fabric, plastic board, air gap and finally a foot of sand. Underneath this are three layers of landscape fabric and landscape filter material, a final plastic board and air gap.

Large worms on top break down the chunks while smaller worms in the gravel chomp up any bits that manage to get by the first piece of landscape fabric. The rest of the landscape fabric in the lower levels are purely to keep the different medias separate. I love perlite both as a hydroponic media as well as microbe metropolitan/ colony. For the price vs ceramic aquarium bio reactors/ filters...its a no-brainer. I'm not sure why I have sand on the bottom but its there.

In my new system, solids run directly onto a splash rock that sits on some broken granite that is in a net pot, surrounded by soil. The idea here is to build up and retain as much nutrient as possible while increasing microbial activity. Excess nutrients are returned to the grow side of the AP system before circulating back to the fish.

I will offset this experiment with another raised bed using a microbial rich solution plus disintegrated fish poop as surface sprinkle to see which way produces the most beneficial microbes. 

OK, i plan on filtering the water with 55 micron screen filter.  so, most of the remaining particulates would be pretty small.  is that still a suitable food for worms?

there would be no visible fish poop pieces.

also, keep in mind that duckweed wants ammonia, not nitrites or nitrates, so i have to be careful to not allow a process that converts ammonia.  i know what i am doing is pretty different from most other systems, it is my curse in life...

Marty, a fine screen is going to clog easily.  I would go with a lower tech method, Like maybe the landscape fabric and a layer of some filter material or a shallow gravel bed and then into a well aerated drum/tank or whatever where the water is then sent on to the duckweed beds.

Right now I have an overflow that just splashes into a layer of the Zipgrow matrix media and through a stock tank with netting and the worms are all through the stuff!

@Carey - I thought I posted a pic of my filter but can't seem to find it

This is of interest to me but I have found it difficult to follow what you have described.  I would appreciate some pictures and further description of the process and your setup.    

OK Bob, I'll try to come up with something this weekend.

Cheers

Has anyone experimented with other types of vegetative feed other than duckweed? Maybe a plant with more...desirable properties?

I've known of people trying moringa.  And there are plenty of algae that are good food for fish.

I am thinking of making my own mix. anybody use flaxseed and soybean?

I've been mixing a raw egg with spirulina.  I then dry it.  When I rub it off the bowl it creates flakes which I feed to my fry.  Both the egg and the spirulina are high in protein, and the fry seem to like it.  But I have not done a cost comparison to spirulina flakes which are readily available and hold up better in the water.

do some research into the flax seed since I believe raw it will block the uptake of certain things.  I've not found any research into using it to feed fish but I have read about using it to supplement chicken feed.

Soy is used heavily in most commercial fish feeds.  It needs processing since raw soy isn't really good to use.  Drawback I see is most Soy available in this country for use as feed is genetically engineered.  You would probably have to grow your own from Organic seed if you want to avoid that issue.

Yes Austin, I have tried a lot of formulations but it all depends on raw materials available in your area. What is in your neighborhood? What bio "waste" is available for free or cheep? Do you have rooftop? What kind of capitol are you playing with? How sustainable do you plan to be? How many levels? What kind of building is it? Is it steal and glass or brick? All these factors and more determine if it is economically sustainable. I believe that if you can prove you grow real food, there are more than enough customers that will drive to you to buy your products. I build my farm around my restaurant and CSA members. I never have to gamble or resort to cutting my price so I can jump the big box's hoops. If you build it right and grow it true...they will come!

A Dave S: Sorry dude, I try to stay away from grains as much as possible esp corn and soy. It's just too unnatural. There are so many ways one can use converted bio-waste as an input that feeding then grain just doesn't make sense to me. You see, grains, though full of energy are empty. What I try to do when growing/ raising food is to build the Omega3 level as high as I can in their feed and balance it out with more natural/ absorb-able forms of proteins and fat and everything else seems to balance out automatically.

Are the materials raw or processed? What kind of wildlife can they support?But that's just me. As you know I'm a little out of straight AP and more onto the bigger picture.

@ TC: As usual, you are right on the spot. What would this site do without you?

Cheers

Good to know about the soy bean.

I am growing flaxseed now, as well as amaranth, morenga, chia, and chaya. I have used egg yoke as a supplement, but I over feed my fish and the egg yoke was not good for the water. 

The facility we are planning is for maximum self-dependency. The plan is to have as low a variable cost structure as possible. As such, we're currently looking to establish an internal eco-system with spirulina, daphnia or gammarus, supplemented with duckweed and/or BSF larva. We plan to use the spirulina to feed both the fish and the daphnia/gammarus with minimal processing, and circulate ammonia-rich water from the fish tanks to the spirulina and duckweed. I think the main challenge is to balance the different optimal environmental factors for pH levels, temperatures, and nutrient requirements.

I think the main challenge is to balance the different optimal environmental factors for pH levels, temperatures, and nutrient requirements.

Nothing wrong with independent systems.  Waste water proportioned from one can be used for the next system without blowing the chemistry out too far out of wack.

I agree. Bob has the right idea.Austin, I would strongly suggest doing a smaller system before you get too ambitious. One usually doesn't get many chances to blow big money.The difference between a hero and a flop is in their readyness. Flops don't usually get a second chance.

I have been using rabbit food pellets. It is actually Timothy Grass in pellet form and my tilapia seem to like it, because I have heard no complaints.



The only drawback I see, is not to feed too much or you will end up with uneaten mush in the bottom of your tank. When this happens I vacuum out the bottom and strain out the debris and return the debris free water to the tank.

Is anyone else using rabbit pellets as fish food?

Regards,
Bob

He means rabbit food pellets (not the bunny berries that come out the other end of the rabbit that some people would call rabbit pellets.)

I know some are using them in vermiponics, but not sure about aqauponics.  Keep us posted.

  Being new to aquaponics,im trying to figure out many things.I feed my chickens purslane,its high in omega 3,s and it grows like weeds.Could something like this be put in a blender and fed to fish?Oh the puslane is one of the many things my spoiled chicks get. One other thing thats high in protein is Romaine lettuce.

Ron, it will depend on the type of fish and how old they are when you introduce the different feed and what else you add to make it appealing to them.

Keep in mind, something thought of as High protein for chickens is very different than high protein for fish.  Chicken feed is what maybe 16-19% for layer feed higher for chick grower.  I think the lowest protein commercial fish feed out there is normally like 32% protein and the grower or fry feed for tilapia is often like 50% protein and they are omnivores.

Quite a lot of work can go into formulating a good balanced fish feed for tank culture and most people doing aquaponics also want good balanced fertilizer for their plants as well.  So you want a feed that is good for growing out fish flesh relatively fast and those feeds are generally also pretty good for providing what the plants need as well.  Stray too far from that and growth may suffer.

Many people do supplement their fish feeds with home grown things, just don't expect to get the fast growth of fish or plants if you are feeding your fish just on lettuce scraps and the occasional blended up "lawn weed".  Fish in tank culture need a well balanced diet provided to them since they are not able to go out and forage in a natural pond for the more natural feeds and in tank culture we usually have them stocked far more densely than they would be in a natural pond.

Does anyone know of a hand cranked (manual) pellet feed mill?

RE: Hand cranked (Manual) Pellet feed mill

you might try a spaghetti extruder and cut the noodles with a knife as they come out.

I guess it does not exists

Pellet mills are not an abundant product on their own, I fear a version small enough to be hand cranked is fairly unlikely.

I use an old time coffee grinder, works fine

I've used hand cranked grinders of all kinds.  A bit different than a pellet mill though.

yes, but it works

Thank you, I will give the spaghetti and coffee a try. somebody needs to make and sell hand cranked pellet mills. 

Hand cranked grinders work fine to grind pellets down to meal.  It is a little trickier to turn meal into a pellet.

correct

@ Jon Parr: Jon, I also commend you on your blending of rabbits, chickens & fish into an ecologically sound urban agricultural system!  My aquaponics system start-up here in Sacramento is on hold until Spring (awaiting best time for bio-filtration growth & avoiding need deal with rains -- which unfortunately don't seem to be happening of late!). However, I have been working with my kids and local 4-H group to get our backyard chicken & rabbit projects going, and using vermi-composting to help tie together. We've had excellent results on both (eggs & meat -- as we're dedicated omnivores!), and thought I'd share some stats we had on the rabbits. Our CA doe gave us 7 bunnies from our NZ buck. I weighed 3 at 9 weeks, and dressed them for dinner (no coat & tie, but ribs & backbone were at the table). Three rabbits weighed 11# live (3.67#/ea) & 6# dressed (about a 55% to the table %, which jives with most literature I've found on meat rabbits). This included about 1# in liver, which I was initially cooking for our dogs, but instead shared half between myself, my 11yo son & my sister-in-law who showed up just as they finished sauteing. The liver was VERY delicious -- much more delicate than beef or pork -- and because we use only organic rabbit pellets & locally sourced foods (willow branches & rose hips a now in season, and great for keeping bunny sniffles & colds at bay! ). Modesto Milling has a wide range of organic feeds, and worth the drive (altho' I'm hoping to coordinate a byers' club in Sacto to split the cost of a pallet delivered). Because we are doing these (fish, feather & fur) as 4-H projects, we will be trying to collect more detailed records, to help know what our (purchased) feed conversion ratio is. We're also getting in a biopod (Karl of CompostMania gave us an R&D discount), and your posting was the final umph that helped my wife cut loose the needed finances.

We have been exploring for some time how to maximize sustainability here, so TRULY appreciate this wonderful forum (THANKS, Carey!). As I ramp up the aquaponics in the Spring, and we wrap up County & State Fair 4-H projects, I'll try to post more of our data.

I must add in closing that we enjoyed a wonderful BBQ rabbit & carrots seasoned with rosemary last night, and are about to enjoy huevos rancheros and Irish Fried Potatoes this morning, which should count as making one's own feed, no?!?

Mmmm, you're making my mouth water. Thanks for the data. I need to take a lesson in organization from you. I'll have to look up Modesto Milling, thanks for the tip.

Vlad Jovanovic is coming all the way from Serbia to my place here in Santa Cruz, CA, to teach aquaponics and permaculture classes with me Feb 15th through the 20th. I hope you can come visit. I even have a class on worms, BSFL, and homemade food for our farm animals. Details at www.fishnetaquaponics.com 

Hi guys, just a quick question.. has anyone ever used pigeon pea meal in their fish feed? and would like to know if there is anything in it that is not good for fish.

TCL very true about small pellet mills. we are about to buy one to make fish food with.. Its about the weight of the rollers and pressure they give the pellets..

Is there a specific mineral that you find aquaponics is lacking? What kind of mineral additives are you using?

Careful, Jordan. Spammers get zapped. 

Jordan, are you selling something?

Chris, that was going to be my next question. lol

So which mineral on this list do you think the average system is missing the most of? 

No apologies needed, Jordan, and I honestly don't care if you're selling something. What I care about is getting my chain yanked, as well as the other 192 members of this group that are notified for each comment in this area, with an "ask me about..." sales tactic. So what are you selling? Get to the point, and if you believe in it start a thread above and engage in the wonder of forums. 

Meanwhile, I fear you are talking out of your ass. Plants need 16 essential elements, and can absorb many more. Fish food (even lousy ones) and seaweed supplement supply all of these, and more.http://www.arbico-organics.com/downloads/maxicrop-kelp-analysis.pdf

More common than actual deficiencies in AP are high pH lockouts. If you contest, please do so, in proper format by starting a thread above. Common mineral or ash products like Azomite are dandy for soil, but they contain almost entirely mineral oxides, and are not (nor will they ever be) plant usable in an aerobic AP environment. And a brix meter is to measure sugars, and I fail to see the connection between brix and micro-nutrients. 

I assume you are selling Bloomin Minerals? http://www.american-nutrition.com/soil.html

What do people think about letting your fish eat comfrey... Mine seem to like it. I know they say it  has alkaloids but its small amount, and  chickens love it.