Aquaponic Gardening

A Community and Forum For Aquaponic Gardeners

I'm moving over some comments from the group wall to a Discussion to organize it all a little better.

Lets see how I do at this.  Making this change over about 8:45 eastern time on 9/25/2010

Well I was trying to embed the Shockwave animation of the indexing valve but couldn't quite figure it out.
If you click on the attached file below, it will play big in the browser window if you have shockwave on your computer.

Views: 1632

Attachments:

Replies to This Discussion

Nice, yes CHOP 2 is essentially what I'm thinking.  

 

I'll put the DWC tanks after the GBs on the way back to the sump and keep the fish tank more on it's own.  I've decided that a tower system would be best designed on its own, so I'm cutting the towers from this system.  I'll place a 6-way indexing valve just after a split off to the FT from the pump (and place a ball valve by the FT outlet), so that on every timed cycle I'll run ~75 gal into a 150 gal GB, which will then drain through a DWC tank, and 50-75 gal through the fish tank.  2 of the GBs will be for trees and won't have rafts connected to them (they'll be in the NW corner) so in total I will have 6 GBs and 4 DWC tanks (all 150 gal) fed off of a 300 gal FT (stocked with 45 catfish the first year, 30 after that) and using a 300 gal sump, on top of which I'll place a board and wicking mat for microgreens.  I know this growing area sounds extreme but I'll be adding a lot of worm juice to the system too.  The idea is to keep the fish side of the operation to a minimum.  Since I'll have 6 cycles to run through I think the flow through the FT should be pretty good.  And running the system on constant flow during temp extremes should be easy.  The sump will be set up to work as a settling tank for the biggest solids.  I'll keep prawns in there to break them down, as well as in the DWC tanks.  The biggest advantage to this setup though is that the GBs don't have to all be on the exact same level, to get even flows from a gravity-fed FT overflow.  The ground I'm building the system on is quite sandy, so I'm much better off keeping the pump directly connected to the GBs.

 

TC -- Do you think that Laguna Max-Flo 1500 pump will be strong enough to run this, accounting for the split in the pump line to the FT (so really the pump's rated more like 750 GPH)?  I plan to use larger poly (HDPE) pipe, 1" or larger, but there will be ~15' between the pump and the IV valve at 2-3' of head.  What size input/output do you think would be appropriate for the 6-way valve?

I haven't been able to find a pump curve for the Max-Flo 1500 to find out how much flow/pressure it delivers at different heights.

It is definitely a bit stronger than the pump I'm using on my 300 gallon system (that install uses the small six way 1 1/4" valve with the gravity stem and no split off from the pump to anything else.)

I adapt up to 1 1/2" pipe from the pump to the valve even though the little pump has 1" plumbing fittings, I can eek a bit more flow out of it by using larger plumbing and reducing the friction.

 

I might recommend that the flow into the fish tank be set up as a small spray bar to give more aeration and reduce the amount of pressure loss at the valve.  However, without being able to look at a pump curve and having never used that pump, I can't guarantee there will be enough pressure to split the flow and still operate the indexing valve.  I'm quite certain that the pump can operate the indexing valve fine if that is all it's doing.

 

I would definitely recommend the 1 1/4" Aquaponics indexing valve with the gravity modification, use the largest pipe you can to go from the pump to the valve and then 1 1/4" from the valve to the beds.  The 1" valve may also work for you but I haven't done as much low pressure testing with it, the smaller pipes tend to cause more friction and interfere more when running lower pressure so the 1" is probably more appropriate if you do not split the flow off for the fish tank.

 

What I might recommend would be a separate small constantly running pump to move water from the sump tank to the fish tank for constant aeration and flow.  This pump could probably be sized to provide the needed flow/turn over/aeration to the fish tank while still being small enough to run on battery backup.

 

I am being a bit cautious about saying that pump can do it since I've not actually tried it.  It might work but I don't want you to spend a lot of money depending on something to work and then have it be a problem for you.

Thanks again TC!

 

Sorry, here's the Laguna Max-Flo chart (I'm considering the 1500 model): http://www.azponds.com/laguna_maxflo_chart.htm

 

Looks like 1386 GPH at 3'.. or ~23 GPM.. so split in half that's 11 GPM, so it should take ~7 minutes to fill a GB every cycle, assuming there's enough pressure to operate the indexing valve.

 

Thanks for the suggestions on pipe sizes.

 

I would prefer to keep the system running on just one pump if I can, I want to minimize points of failure (and power consumption).  I think just one pump should be okay, even if I have to start/stop the flow to the FT on every cycle.  I figure if I'm getting ~75 gal through the 300 gal fish tank per cycle, every 7 minutes, then every hour I should get ~8 cycles and so ~600 gal of flow through the FT.  Since this is twice the tank volume I figure I should have excellent water quality with this setup (even though some of the FT water will be brought right back to the FT every cycle).  

 

Am I overlooking anything obvious, aside from the possible pressure/IV issue?

 

For the gravity-modified valve to work, does it need some vertical drop of water before entering the valve?  I ask because the ~3' head I mentioned earlier is from the bottom of the dug-in sump to roughly the level where the IV could be just above the ground.  If I need say 2' of water column above the IV though, then I should be looking at the 5' head flow rate, which is 1215 GPH (still close to 90% of the 3' head rate.. not bad!).

 

I'll post my thoughts on backups in a more appropriate thread.  I've spent a lot of time thinking about this recently.  My take -- expensive and complicated backup systems probably aren't worth it, at least when the fish side of the operation is kept to a bare minimum.  I'll have _some_ backup, but nothing extensive.

Just so you know, I'm able to run the indexing valve with a 50 watt pump in my 300 gallon system.  So by doing something like having two pumps, you wouldn't necessarily be using more power and as far as creating more failure points, well yes and no.  Look at it this way, if you had two pumps and one of em failed, you still have one pump running and could swap it over to the fish tank (if it wasn't already there) to keep aeration up while you got a replacement or there is a good likely hood that you might already have a replacement on hand.  I was also figuring that a smaller pump would be more reasonable to provide battery backup for.

 

Ok so pump curve, well, looking at the numbers there are still too many variables that I can't be certain that branching off to feed the fish tank will work.  It might work but I can't guarantee it.

 

Now here is another option that Rupe brought up on BYAP.  If you were to branch off to the fish tank after the valve, you have a far better chance of getting the proper flow/pressure through the valve to keep it working properly, however, that means you have to T off from each outlet of the valve back up to the fish tank as well as to the grow beds.  This might not be so bad if the valve is situated next to the fish tank but it will mean lots of extra plumbing fittings and ball valves (and no you can't just tie them all together unless you put check valves in each one.)

Alright TC, you've convinced me that using two pumps is better, for a few reasons.  Thanks for the advice.  I don't like adding another possible failure point, but I do see the sense in splitting up the risk, especially since the pumps are not expected to break often.  I also don't like having to spend an extra ~$80 for another pump, but I then realized that my previous max head estimates were off by a couple of feet and given the risk in splitting the flows before the IV, I'm not sure the Max-Flo 1500 could have handled this setup anyway (so buying an extra pump is probably more like only ~$40 more).  On the plus side though I'll actually be using less power with two pumps (which should easily cover the additional $40), I should have fewer plumbing worries, and (perhaps most importantly) then I can adjust the timer cycles to the GBs more freely, to help control water temps or just cut down on power use at night for example, without affecting the flow to the FT.  Also, like you say the smaller pump for the FT will require much less backup power if needed.

 

Here's a better flow chart that includes more Laguna models (the 'Power Jet' just looks like the Max-Flo with an optional fountain attachment, which I won't use, but only a few bucks more):  http://www.azponds.com/laguna_powerjet_chart.htm

 

So now I'm thinking of using the 32W 600 GPH model (~$90) continuously circulating the FT water (the rate should be ~300 GPH at the FT, for a turnover of once an hour; hopefully this is enough considering that the water being pumped in will typically be only ~50% filtered.  I hope the low fish stocking density will make this a non-issue) and a 72W 1300 GPH model (~$130) on a timer to work the 6-way valve and hopefully flood a GB every ~10 minutes.  

 

Do you think leaving ~50 min between floods in each GB is too long, on a very hot day?  This might be my minimum time between floods with this setup.

 

For the FT aeration, I'll have a few airstones in the tank so I won't be too dependent on water flow to keep the DO up.  Do you have airstones in your 300 gal tank, or do you just rely on the splashing input water?  I've read that catfish require very high DO levels, and we have HOT summers here so I don't want to be stingy.

 

Finally, I'm planning on pumping the water to some GBs that could be a good 30' away.. should I expect significant loss on this length of pipe?  I'm hoping I can get every GB to fill at roughly the same rate, to make the timer cycles most efficient.

I'm still a bit worried about saying if the smaller pump would work for the indexing valve.  I need to go look up some numbers I worked out for figuring if a particular pump can do the job.  (I don't know if those charts are generous or conservative.)

 

Time between floods, well I've done that kind of cycle.  If you can provide yourself a way to perhaps adjust the flood height a bit for the summer but some mid day shade will probably help even more.  Now the stand pipe drain holes, if you start out making them small so the beds drain slowly then this might help too but you will have to balance that with having enough water to service the grow beds being flooded.  I've sometimes changes the drain rate with a little e-tape over a hole.

 

The Grow beds that are far away, up size the piping to them to reduce friction as much as you can and minimize fittings that restrict flow and cause more friction.  Make the plumbing to them as straight a shot with as few bends as possible.

1 1/4" Gravity Modified Aquaponics Indexing valve minimum pump recommendations.

 

gallon/min            gallon/hour    max height      
valve /bed           valve / bed    above valve       
16  /  15                    960 / 900           10 ft       

so above are some numbers I worked out when testing the Gravity modified 1 1/4" valve.  Seems you need a pump that can deliver 16 gallons per minute at the height of the valve and 15 gallons per minute at the height of the beds (if they are higher than the valve)  Then I multiplied this to get the gallons per hour.  To ensure enough pressure at the valve you need a pump that can lift water at least 10 feet above the height of the valve.  So if you have the valve installed a foot above the low water level, then you need a pump that can lift the water up to at least 11 feet and provide at least 16 gallons per minute at 1 foot head and at least 15 gallons per minute at whatever height the grow beds are at.

 

I came up with these numbers based on the pump curve of the pumps I was testing with and had no good way to measure how much flow was actually being delivered at the valve.  So of course the accuracy is going to be affected by how honest the pump curves are.  I can say that company is pretty honest about the power consumption of the pumps as measured with a kill-o-watt meter.

 

My 300 gallon system is using a 1 1/4" 6 way gravity modified Aquaponics Indexing Valve with a Quiet One 4000 pond pump, it uses about 50 watts.  The valve is about 18 inches above the fish tank and the tops of the grow beds are about 18 inches above that.  I use 1 1/2" pipe from the pump to the valve and 1 1/4" thin wall pipe out to the grow beds.  Longest piece of pipe run is probably 15 feet over and 15 feet to the furthest bed from the valve.

Ah, great TC, thanks for the numbers.  

 

It doesn't look like the Laguna 1300 will cut for me, even when directly connected to the valve (I'm looking at 5' head flows, since I'll need to squeeze in the DWC tanks).  Since the Quiet One 4000s show about the same flow at that height (though these win on watts here), I think I would do best by looking at the Quiet One 5000s.  Interestingly, those jump in power consumption to 110W and would only just provide my required 900 GPH at 5'.  Comparing that to the next-up Laguna 1500 (at 100 W and 1215 GPH at 5'), I think the Laguna is the winner for me.  True, they are $20 more.  I think this will be made up for though by the lower power consumption, especially considering that with the higher flow I can flood a GB in less time, and maybe get away with more off time.

 

Do you see any advantage of the Quiet One 5000 over the Laguna 1500, for my GB situation?  

 

They both come with 3-yr warranties, though I get an extra year on the Laguna's if I buy through azponds.com.

 

Are you able to sell Laguna pumps?  I would love to buy it through you if I can.  I do want to stick to the superior pump for my setup though.

 

On the FT side, I think the Quiet One 4000 is the clear winner.  Much higher flows at the ~3-4' head I'm planning on there and for much less power.  I think for pump-death backup I will probably just buy 2 of each pump, I don't think matching the pumps is really worth it over the long run, especially if it's just to give you a backup for a few days while you buy another of the same size.  As long as I can keep a good flow through the FT (I should now get over two turnovers an hour -- enough?), it's in my interest to keep the watts down as much as possible.

 

I will definitely also buy a 6-way gravity-modified 1 1/4" valve in the next couple of days.  Thanks for providing those!

 

I don't know about the Laguna pumps.  I know of people using them so I expect they are good pumps, I've never handled one myself. 

 

Yea I think the 2 turn overs an hour will be a good thing for you.

 

Now if you are getting two of the QP pumps anyway, I might suggest you could try hooking one up to see if it manages the indexing valve for you and if it doesn't then you go and get the bigger pump.  Then again, I tend to like having an extra pump or two around for little projects that always crop up.

I think I'll just stick with the L1500 from the start.  I'd rather not be running the system on the edge of failure.  Also, the faster floods will be nice.

 

Thanks for all of your guidance here TC!

 

Cool, please keep us posted about how it goes for you.

TC, if I have 1-1/4" inputs to the GBs from the pump, what Uniseal drain sizes should I use?  I was thinking 1-1/2" but would that be enough?  It's better to go much larger than the input, right?  Maybe 2"?

 

I have read that the 2" uniseals (so 3" holesaw) can have problems leaking over time.  Have you heard or experienced this?

 

My FT input will come from the Quiet One 4000 Pond Pump which I see has a 1" outlet.  I will probably stick with this as it should provide a quick turnover already.  Should I get a 1-1/2" or 2" output for the FT?

 

When I see a 2" Uniseal, I need a 3" hole and pipe with 2" outer diameter, right?

 

What are your drain plumbing connections like?  I would like to drill straight through the bottoms, but I know the RMSTs have that ribbed bottom, so I probably have to go out of the side.

 

Thanks!

RSS

© 2024   Created by Sylvia Bernstein.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service