Testosterone Laced Feed so that Fry will develop into males

[Michael Quinones]

Since male tilapia grow bigger and faster ........ I understand that by feeding Testosterone Laced Feed as soon as the feed sack is absorbed within three weeks the fry will develop into males.  Where can I buy Testosterone Laced Feed.  I live in Gainesville Florida.

[Chris Downs]

Hi Michael.

What type of testosterone do you want to use, and is it something that you would like to absorb yourself? 

Would that completely negate growing Organically? 

I am building an Organic aquaculture/Aquaponics.  Have you done research on how it affects the growth, life and the consumer of your end product?

How about anyone else?  I am eating to grow my heart after 8 heart attacks, and consuming organically has helped tremendously.

Can you share how you are labeling the crop when sold, and do you believe that it will make that much of an impact on your end results?

Also, I wrote a post while researching and developing my plan.  How do you think that adding other factors into the cycle of life for your fish will effect their sales?

http://hisfarm.org/2807/water/what-is-the-life-cycle-of-aquaponics/  is the link.  I would really like your feed back as I am pricing equipment now to set up and get ready for the spring implementation.

Thank you

[Michael Quinones]

Chris thank you for taking the time to respond.   As soon as I posted my question I did what I should of done before I posted the question.  I did do just a bit of reserch and immidiately realized I had opened a can of worms and as I suspected I did.   I do not claim to know anything about artificial introduction of Testosterone.   That being said evidently there is something suspected with the use of testosterone that is not of a benefit and may even be detrimental, the red flags have gone up.  Furthermore I will not waiste any time looking into this as there are more time sensitive things on my table that need my attention and this is something better left to people that are better qualified than I.  In answer to your question on how to label packaging I do beliave we have just adreassed that.  I had no intention of growing anything intended for sale but I've been told that what we are almost finished building borders on a commercial opperation.  I supose we will use the Blue Bell concept.  Eat as much as we can and sell the rest.     
 
Chris Downs said:

Hi Michael.

What type of testosterone do you want to use, and is it something that you would like to absorb yourself? 

Would that completely negate growing Organically? 

I am building an Organic aquaculture/Aquaponics.  Have you done research on how it affects the growth, life and the consumer of your end product?

How about anyone else?  I am eating to grow my heart after 8 heart attacks, and consuming organically has helped tremendously.

Can you share how you are labeling the crop when sold, and do you believe that it will make that much of an impact on your end results?

Also, I wrote a post while researching and developing my plan.  How do you think that adding other factors into the cycle of life for your fish will effect their sales?

http://hisfarm.org/2807/water/what-is-the-life-cycle-of-aquaponics/  is the link.  I would really like your feed back as I am pricing equipment now to set up and get ready for the spring implementation.

Thank you

[George]

Chris, This doesn't appear to be an illustration of aquaponics in your article about aquaponics

[George]

Michael, I've read of a hormone-free method of producing mostly male tilapia.  In panfish species, such as redear/bluegill, it is done by crossing.  Where you are, Newberry, FL, you'll probably need to heat water inside a greenhouse to keep tilapia, unless you plan to do it indoors. 

[Chip Pilkington]

Interesting discussion. Couple of comments caught my attention. First, and this is silly but quite unclear to many... whether something is "organic" or not, means nothing in AP...and it's irrelevent. AP has the ability to produce Chemical and Pesticide free fish and plants, not organic.

The use of a very potent and hazardous chemical (name is slipping my memory this minute and I'm too lazy to look it up) to provide the steroid s required to produce all males is quite common in Aquaculture or more specifically, stock producers (fry) providers here in Asia. The first fry I purchased came from a farm where these fry are produced, as well as the feed. Though most of the warning labels were in Thai, it was apparent through translation it was very nasty stuff. Bottom line, I bought mixed sex fish on that day and have been producing my own fry for a few years. Producers claim the fish have been out there for years and people all over the world consume them with no issue. That said, it doesn't mean these "altered" fish need to exist in AP systems.

I understand that many people, particularly new people in AP want to maximize everything. "How many fish can I produce in how short a time, in how small a system with the smallest pump possible, etc, etc" If you get my meaning.

The bottom line is that an experienced, established fish farmer may see a difference in long-term production for all-male stock. I believe most APer's would have a very difficult time distinguishing between male and female growth, as very few systems are running at max capacity (DO, filtration, feed, temps and all critical water chemistry). In addition, you lose your breeding capability, thus future stock (unless you don't mind paying $1 or 2 plus per fish for new stock.

A couple of things can reduce the breeding activity, which may or may not be slowing female growth.

First, and easiest, don't give them any structures or breeding areas in the tank. Fish will still find a way to breed, but just not as frequently.

Second, also easy, use of current (divert some of the additional pump pressure that you have hopefully engineered into your syustem) or use a strong spray bar, etc.

Third, stock more densely. This is most difficult as it requires other critical parameters be met. It is however, extremely effective and works towards the max production goal.

Not sure if this matters or helps in your plan, but it's valid. Also, I can produce at least one chemical name if someone is interested. They may be more than one product - we lack controls and product safety here is Asia so you all might have access to a different product.

[Chip Pilkington]

Just looked again for my research and additional info on Methyl-testosterone and can't find my file. If you search just Methyl-testosterone, you should find all pertinent info.

The food production I observed involved sun drying the super-finely ground feed components while exposing it to the liquid product.

From memory, If you were to introduce the product to fry, it must begin right away and continue for several weeks.

If you'd like to learn more on the topic, you might google Nam Sai Farms and you'll see a large, successful breeding operation here in Thailand using the Methyl-testosterone practice. The owner is Scottish and will respond to email question and inquiries. It's a very nice operation - been out there a few times. It's how I began my research into mono-sex Tilapia (which I have long abandoned). Good luck

[Chris Downs]

You are correct,  It is an aquaculture system. There is no produce being grown.  I was thinking of using the sediment at the bottom of the tank and composting it. 

I am still working on the best way to not use chemicals, protect the land and the food crops from pesticides and modifications.

I apologize for the confusion on my part.  I am currently running a small experiment at home in our house for a good aquaponic system as I research the larger version.

I would prefer to grow smaller numbers of fish, while at the same time using "Natural" processes rather than the man made chemistry.  My family and friends are Native Americans, and I am working on producing a mini-ecosystem on paper.

What are your thoughts on that.  Other than the natural land with lakes, forests and fields, I have not seen nor heard of a very large scale aquaponic system that protects the land and its inhabitants.  Too many variables, and even in nature, those variables change all the time. 

Plants and Animals come and go all of the time.  Even the way we humans impact and try to manage everything drastically changes the environment.

Just trying to figure the best way.  I hope that you will continue to post as I work on building a Sustainable (for generations) Natural "Organic" aquaponic Farm and Garden.

Thank you

Chris

George said:

Chris, This doesn't appear to be an illustration of aquaponics in your article about aquaponics

[Chris Downs]

Chip Pilkington said:

Just looked again for my research and additional info on Methyl-testosterone and can't find my file. If you search just Methyl-testosterone, you should find all pertinent info.

The food production I observed involved sun drying the super-finely ground feed components while exposing it to the liquid product.

From memory, If you were to introduce the product to fry, it must begin right away and continue for several weeks.

If you'd like to learn more on the topic, you might google Nam Sai Farms and you'll see a large, successful breeding operation here in Thailand using the Methyl-testosterone practice. The owner is Scottish and will respond to email question and inquiries. It's a very nice operation - been out there a few times. It's how I began my research into mono-sex Tilapia (which I have long abandoned). Good luck

Thanks!  Looking forward to fine tuning my research and eating healthy. 

Just so you know, Since I have started paying close attention to what I use for fuel in my body, I have increased my heart function from 27% to over 46%.  I was  told that the heart never regenerates after massive heart failure, but for me it has. 

For me, "Organic is a journey for Death to Life."

[Chris Downs]

Chip Pilkington said:

Interesting discussion. Couple of comments caught my attention. First, and this is silly but quite unclear to many... whether something is "organic" or not, means nothing in AP...and it's irrelevent. AP has the ability to produce Chemical and Pesticide free fish and plants, not organic.

The use of a very potent and hazardous chemical (name is slipping my memory this minute and I'm too lazy to look it up) to provide the steroid s required to produce all males is quite common in Aquaculture or more specifically, stock producers (fry) providers here in Asia. The first fry I purchased came from a farm where these fry are produced, as well as the feed. Though most of the warning labels were in Thai, it was apparent through translation it was very nasty stuff. Bottom line, I bought mixed sex fish on that day and have been producing my own fry for a few years. Producers claim the fish have been out there for years and people all over the world consume them with no issue. That said, it doesn't mean these "altered" fish need to exist in AP systems.

I understand that many people, particularly new people in AP want to maximize everything. "How many fish can I produce in how short a time, in how small a system with the smallest pump possible, etc, etc" If you get my meaning.

The bottom line is that an experienced, established fish farmer may see a difference in long-term production for all-male stock. I believe most APer's would have a very difficult time distinguishing between male and female growth, as very few systems are running at max capacity (DO, filtration, feed, temps and all critical water chemistry). In addition, you lose your breeding capability, thus future stock (unless you don't mind paying $1 or 2 plus per fish for new stock.

A couple of things can reduce the breeding activity, which may or may not be slowing female growth.

First, and easiest, don't give them any structures or breeding areas in the tank. Fish will still find a way to breed, but just not as frequently.

Second, also easy, use of current (divert some of the additional pump pressure that you have hopefully engineered into your syustem) or use a strong spray bar, etc.

Third, stock more densely. This is most difficult as it requires other critical parameters be met. It is however, extremely effective and works towards the max production goal.

Not sure if this matters or helps in your plan, but it's valid. Also, I can produce at least one chemical name if someone is interested. They may be more than one product - we lack controls and product safety here is Asia so you all might have access to a different product.

Great information and conversation.  I appreciate the help and your perspectives on everything.  I may be overthinking some things, but with all of the testosterone studies on humans around the world, I am a bit paranoid about adding it, even indirectly, to my diet. 

[Chip Pilkington]

Hi Chris,

I think your due diligence and desire to keep it healthy are great. I completely agree with you about the testosterone consumption. What troubles me is that many of the developing countries which are currently flooding the US and Australian markets with Tilapia, may be or most likely ARE using the method for monosex production. It amazes me what is allowed to be imported into the US after seeing so many of these operations in person. Not only is it scary stuff, but it's also destroyed, or at least distorted the market for folks looking to produce safe fish.

Also, if you get a chance to visit the Nam Sai Farms site, check out the Tilapia pricing. Keep in mind the prices will be in Thai Baht and USD. The exchange rate is just over 30 THB to one USD. The prices are for large quantity, but they are still very cheap for small orders. Its a HUGE difference in stock pricing from the US.

[Chris Downs]

Hi Chip,

Thank you!  I will have to read more tomorrow,   I noticed the pricing is very cheap, especially as you get larger quantities.  I will have to read their growing manual tomorrow.

I appreciate your help!

Thank you again!

Chip Pilkington said:

Hi Chris,

I think your due diligence and desire to keep it healthy are great. I completely agree with you about the testosterone consumption. What troubles me is that many of the developing countries which are currently flooding the US and Australian markets with Tilapia, may be or most likely ARE using the method for monosex production. It amazes me what is allowed to be imported into the US after seeing so many of these operations in person. Not only is it scary stuff, but it's also destroyed, or at least distorted the market for folks looking to produce safe fish.

Also, if you get a chance to visit the Nam Sai Farms site, check out the Tilapia pricing. Keep in mind the prices will be in Thai Baht and USD. The exchange rate is just over 30 THB to one USD. The prices are for large quantity, but they are still very cheap for small orders. Its a HUGE difference in stock pricing from the US.

[George]

I agree about the natural processes.  We feed organic fish food in our system and continue to think about how we can produce more fish food from our waste stream, such as worms, black soldier fly larvae, minnows, gamarrus shrimp, etc.  Our system runs partially from solar 24/7 and all power backup is solar.   It's a work in progress.  As to small numbers of fish, I'm aiming more for a mid point.  We would like to supplement our diet with harvested fish and breed our own stock.  First fish harvest is planned for spring/2013, coinciding with a system expansion and first spawning attempt with Florida native bluegill.  Regards.

Chris Downs said:

I would prefer to grow smaller numbers of fish, while at the same time using "Natural" processes rather than the man made chemistry.