HELP...high nitites...fish look sick

[Charlotte Seibert]

Hi all, I am new to all of this, Aquaponics and blogging, I need HELP, fast, I thought my tank was cycled, I was lucky enough to get a small fish pond, gold fish and all the good bacteria, I bought a larger tank, 180 gal and put the fish, water and filter into it, all looked good, nitrates where there, low ammonia, and nitrites..... I removed the goldfish and added 40 catfish fingerlings 4 -6 inches... thats when it all turned bad...my pump from the tank to the grow bed failed and I was not aware of this for at least 14 hours...I thought that with tthe timer going on 15 min and off 45 I was just missing it...My grow bed is expanded shale... I was already filtering through the bed when I added the fish... but bed was not planted... I got my worms and fish on the same day... nice warm 70 degrees..what a happy day :) but now it look like I might lose it all... :(..my ammonia shot up to 2 ppm, nitrite 2 ppm and nitrate over 160 ppm ...I got the pump fixed...ran the water through the newly planted growbed continuesly for 14 hours to try and clean up the water...did not help... my fish where gulping at the top of the tank, jumping out, and not eating....then to make it all worse .. the temp changed to 45 degrees... I was and am not prepared for such a quick change...had hoped to make it through summer and build a greenhouse by fall... luckly we had a huge rain storm and I was able to collect enough water to change about half my tank...did not use tap water... now more than 36 hours later and my water has dropped to 55, ammonia has lowered to 0.5 ppm but nitrite is still 2 ppm and nitrate has dropped to 80 ppm...fish still show no signs of wanting to eat, are no longer jumping out or gasping for air but seem to just be staying as close to the pump as possible and not moving around much... what do I need to do... I don't want to lose it all and sure don't want my fish to die... also to add more stress to it all my husband was not into this and now I am hearing "I told you so" I have to make this work so I can get in the last I TOLD YOU SO..  lol   ...really HELP

[Rob Nash]

Maybe Sylvia will chime in on this one ...im not sure but i think pool salt is sodium chloride. maybe there are other types?

i do know that with water softners you have to be sure not to use the sodium type.

[Michael Welber]

Isn't all salt sodium chloride? NaCl. Iodine is one issue for sure and that's why table salt is not good. 

[Rob Nash]

no ...there are magnesium and potassium salts.   ...im pretty sure the rule is no sodium for plants or bacteria.

[Michael Welber]

It would be good to hear from Sylvia on this since she recommends pool salt. TCLynx also said that. And, again, I have had no ill effects. Fish are thriving and plants are really thriving. 

[Vlad Jovanovic]

I just checked on that...aquarium folks all say it's A OK. (pool/solar/sea salt)...

NaCl is fine as long as there are no 'additives' many anti-caking agents contain aluminum or metals that could potentially harm the fish I guess...iodine is apearently a 'no-no' as well.

No...NaCl is just one of many MANY different mineral salts. (It's just happens to be the one we are all most familiar with

Salts are a mineral compound that forms when an acid reacts with a base. It can be Copper and Sulfur, or Sodium and Chlorine...or a thousand other things in between...

[Charlotte Seibert]

ty alll.. just knowing I have people to talk to has really helped me relax some.... I hope I did not mess up.. I work weekends, 12 hours on and 12 hrs on call for 3 days in a row... I had epson salt at home..my house is close to work..so I ran home disolved about 1/2 lb of epson salt in a water bucket full of the last rain water I had... added it slowly..have the pump running  15 min on 15 min off with an aditional air pump.. looks like we may get more rain in a few hours... should I keep doing water changes? I can't make it back to the house till lunch ( 2 more hours)

[Rob Nash]

sounds like a FT vs GB thing   ...Rupert, TC, Matt, Dr. Rakocy?  some one help these folks.

[Vlad Jovanovic]

You're probably right Rob. Adding NaCl could do nothing to help your grow-bed, only your fish.

Conversely, it would seem that either Epsom, or pool salt (NaCl) would though, bring benefits to the fish that Charlotte needs right now. (This last part (fish) is just a half-assed educated guess though...the first part (plants) I'm certain of)

Again, confirmation from any number of the AP rocket-fish-scientists would be appreciated though

I would also like to ask if a higher than what plants generally like pH (say 7.5-8 or so) would be helpful in Charlottes situation for the fish? I ask because I've recently read a study where the same level of Iron exposure went from being deadly at a low pH, damaging at a slightly higher pH, and OK at an even higher one...So was wondering if nitrites and 'brown blood disease' works in a similar way?

Rob Nash said:

sounds like a FT vs GB thing   ...Rupert, TC, Matt, Dr. Rakocy?  some one help these folks.

[matthew ferrell]

I just wrote a post but it didn't update, so sorry if this is a double.

The deal with salt.

Sodium Chloride is a commonly used salt in aquaculture.  For nitrite toxicity you want to add Cl until a 10:1 ratio of Cl:NO2.
Jeremy Pickens did some salt work with lettuce and found them to be very tolerant of elevated sodium levels.  AS for bacteria, there are nitrifiers that live at all salinities and I don't believe you will knock a population out with normal salt treatments.

Rob is right, Epsom salt is a great way of adding Mg.

Vlad, I have read nothing that would suggest that the effects of nitrite change with pH or temp.  Altering pH though will effect the fish in a negative way if they are already stressed, and it happens in a quick fashion.

[matthew ferrell]

The temp is too low to eat.  Catfish(channel) will start to eat in ponds around 16C, and better at18-20C, and like machines up into 30C.  Stop trying to feed them.  Your grow bed probably also took a hit from the lack of water cycle and temp.

The DO issue will most likely cause some fish to die, having killed close to my 500,000 mark now, I'd tell you to relax it happens.  And the nitrite level is not too hot for the fish.  Nitrate is not important.  It can get higher than 500 without issues.

[Vlad Jovanovic]

Matthew... What Rob, Bill Moore, myself, and others were wondering was if anyone had some pointers as to the amount of Epsom salt to add for the benefit of the plants (Mg)...

Rupert gave a recombination 1ppt and there was another thread going on Mg, but purely plant related. So, we are wondering if that same dosing recommendation applies.

I'm thinking it would be significantly less than 1ppt. Since although Mg is a significant component of chlorophyll, and Mg content in plant leaves generally ranges from 0.20% - 0.50% and can be significantly higher (up to 1.00%), most literature will call for a 50mg/L (50ppm) concentration in solution for a lot of cultivars (toms and cukes may need a bit more though)...We don't know how much MgSO4 to add to get the desired amount of Mg...?  

Good point about not stressing the fish. My thinking was that someone who had just finished cycled might have high-ish pH, and was wondering if that was working to their advantage. But sounds like it's probably not. Thanks Matthew.

[Charlotte Seibert]

GOOD NEWS!!!!! the nitrite is going down after the epson salt... now 1 ppm.... thank you all...now I can go back to work and stop worring about my fish... how long can fish go without eating.. I just got them wendsday and the pump failed that night... sooo...the cold snap might be a good thing...slow them down some...should start warming up tomorrow... water temp is now 55