Water

[Christopher Brickey]

 I am wanting to solicit opinions about what kind of water to use in an aquaponics system and also how to go about getting that water. Also, it seems that I have to fill the water back up an awful lot, is that normal?

[Christopher Brickey]

 Do u know what UV treatment does for water? I am guessing that it just kills microorganisms? does it kill them all? does it do anything else?

rick kennerly said:

There are lots of uv treatment systems available for drinking water.  We came out of the small boat cruising community and you could never be sure about the water in the Caribbean...or your own tanks, for that matter.   A lot had RO systems, too, but began to rely on them too much and reduce tankage, which seems short sighted (we had a hand powered RO for the liferaft, though).  

Anyway, my point is that if you're catching water in a cistern, then battery powered UV systems for the boat/rv markets (in reality just a special florescent light) give dual duty, since you can power water purification during an emergency.  

Of course, put it in the right place in your system, since aquaponics is a highly biological dependent system.   

[Michael Welber]

Metal for drinking water is great. Not good for fish, however. But you're right. It's almost impossible to get away from plastic. 

[Vlad Jovanovic]

Hi Rick. I too have been trying to work out "what that means for the fish". Take for example the fact that most AP outfits will strive to keep their Fe concentrations at 2-3ppm (or mg/L) to avoid plant deficiency problems...Ususally with the use of DTPA or EDDHA Iron chelates, or Iron Sulfate...Yet much of the aquaculture literature is suggesting concentrations much lower than those? 

The iron from groundwater is usually mostly ferous iron (Fe2+ which is plant usable) and will convert to ferric iron (Fe3+ non-usable to plants...well mostly, but that would be nit picking)...when exposed to an oxygen rich environment (air)...

Now according to a study done by  D. J. B. Dalzell and N. A. A. Macfarlane. On Brown Trout. Published in the Journal of Fish Biology Vol.55 Issue 2 pages 301-315; ...The mechanism of iron toxicity in fish appears to be physiological accumulation on the gills themselves, causing clogging and gill damage. Not inside of any tissue or blood.

 Maybe fish in AP systems being exposed to iron at levels of 2-3ppm ( or heck probably much more in some backyard set ups) are being harvested long before before the damage takes a significant toll? 

Also, ferric iron seems to clump together after time, forming big enough clumps to be settled out and removed by aquaculturists. (And in AP probably sticks to sludge as well as calcium and/or phosphate precipitates the way that iron will (along with Zinc, Magnesium etc... in hydroponic applications). People removing sludge from their systems are probably removing a fair amount of Iron as well, I'm guessing.

See:  Nutrient cycle and sludge production during different stagesof red tilapia (Oreochromissp.) growth in a recirculatingaquaculture system Gholamreza Rafiee, Che Roos Saad...that Terri Mikkola recently turned us on to...

I sure wish somebody who is a 'fish person' could shed some light on the issue as to why everything in aquaculture literature suggest numbers that are so damn low in regards to both ferric as well as (esp it seems) ferrous iron, yet there appears to be no problems what so ever with numbers 10 times the suggested limits in many commercial AP settings?

I sure hope that one of the Masters can put this to some rest for us 

 

rick kennerly said:

Water is not water.  I just tested my well.  While no fecal coliform, it did have 1.34 ppm for dissolived iron where the state limit for drinking water is 0.3 ppm max and pH of 7.47.  I'm still trying to work out what that much iron means for fish, but I think it's not good.

Attaching a chlorine filter from a city supply might give considerably better --more balanced-- water. 

[TCLynx]

in Aquaponics or hydroponics the only metal that would be safe for use as a container or piping would be high grade Stainless Steel.  Generally too $$ to be reasonable.

Copper, brass, aluminum, steel, Iron, or galvanized pipe will all corrode, rust and/or leach too much stuff into the water to be safe for fish.

[Sheri Schmeckpeper]

It is true that different areas have different water issues. And I confess, I don't drink Phoenix water from the tap. It tastes like dirt. :)  But R/O water is void of minerals which are good for you, so you have to watch out for that, too. Balance is hard to find, isn't it?

Christopher Brickey said:

 I try to only drink bottled or R/O water. I do not even like to drink tap water from a regular filter.

Sheri Schmeckpeper said:

It depends on where you live, but city water and well water are usually fine. R/O water removes trace minerals, so you may have issues with that. Perrier is a bit costly unless you have a relative in the higher levels of the company. If you're willing to drink it, it should be fine for your system.Regardless, you want to make certain the PH is good for the plants.

[TCLynx]

Definitely if one is to use only rain water or RO water, more buffering and minerals will need to be added since the source water won't be bringing them.

[Christopher Brickey]

 That is good to know. I will look into it. I was looking at ur pic. Do u use metal for the gb's? but u can not use it for fish, eh? hmm that s a valid point though that we should all be aware of how much plastic we use and take steps accordingly. for instance, most of my system is made from reclaimed parts.

Michael Welber said:

Metal for drinking water is great. Not good for fish, however. But you're right. It's almost impossible to get away from plastic. 

[Christopher Brickey]

 i just do not want to drink chlorine or fluoride and i assume that the fish do not want to swim in it either. but that is a good point, about the minerals i did not consider that. but on the other hand i am sketchy about minerals and vitamins that are added in a lot of stuff. u know if they would just stop compromising our drinking water we would not be having this discussion, but wat r u going to do now that everyone is so scared to drink untreated water?

Sheri Schmeckpeper said:

It is true that different areas have different water issues. And I confess, I don't drink Phoenix water from the tap. It tastes like dirt.  But R/O water is void of minerals which are good for you, so you have to watch out for that, too. Balance is hard to find, isn't it?

Christopher Brickey said:

 I try to only drink bottled or R/O water. I do not even like to drink tap water from a regular filter.

Sheri Schmeckpeper said:

It depends on where you live, but city water and well water are usually fine. R/O water removes trace minerals, so you may have issues with that. Perrier is a bit costly unless you have a relative in the higher levels of the company. If you're willing to drink it, it should be fine for your system.Regardless, you want to make certain the PH is good for the plants.

[Christopher Brickey]

 I am going to have to get more info on this mineral thing aren't I?

TCLynx said:

Definitely if one is to use only rain water or RO water, more buffering and minerals will need to be added since the source water won't be bringing them.

[TCLynx]

I just metal for framing the grow beds, NOT in contact with the water!!!!!!  There is a plastic liner that actually touches the water and media.

Minerals, generally it is going to be stuff like calcium carbonate, magnesium, and some other stuff (like you would have to add to water if you were going to keep an aquarium but had only distilled water to fill it with.)  I don't know exactly how much you would need since my well water has plenty I could probably top up with rain water for weeks on end and still not have to worry much about adding extra minerals to my system since the well water adds so much when I use it.

[rick kennerly]

kills microorganisms, which is why you want it for filling a tank, but not in the recirculation side.  You want the organisms in the fish poop and the worm poop.   

Christopher Brickey said:

 Do u know what UV treatment does for water? I am guessing that it just kills microorganisms? does it kill them all? does it do anything else?

rick kennerly said:

There are lots of uv treatment systems available for drinking water.  We came out of the small boat cruising community and you could never be sure about the water in the Caribbean...or your own tanks, for that matter.   A lot had RO systems, too, but began to rely on them too much and reduce tankage, which seems short sighted (we had a hand powered RO for the liferaft, though).  

Anyway, my point is that if you're catching water in a cistern, then battery powered UV systems for the boat/rv markets (in reality just a special florescent light) give dual duty, since you can power water purification during an emergency.  

Of course, put it in the right place in your system, since aquaponics is a highly biological dependent system.   

[rick kennerly]

I've been corresponding with one of the aquaculture people at VSU, PhD type.  He says aerate and retest.  Iron needs to be well under 1.0 ppm, more like 0.5 ppm.  Once you've got your main supply ppm down, he suggests keeping a "top off" supply of water in a barrel that you aerate constantly.  

BTW, he suggest a fine screen, like window screen, over the length of the sprayer bar to give the iron and o2 more surface area to oxidize on.  

Vlad Jovanovic said:

Hi Rick. I too have been trying to work out "what that means for the fish". Take for example the fact that most AP outfits will strive to keep their Fe concentrations at 2-3ppm (or mg/L) to avoid plant deficiency problems...Ususally with the use of DTPA or EDDHA Iron chelates, or Iron Sulfate...Yet much of the aquaculture literature is suggesting concentrations much lower than those? 

The iron from groundwater is usually mostly ferous iron (Fe2+ which is plant usable) and will convert to ferric iron (Fe3+ non-usable to plants...well mostly, but that would be nit picking)...when exposed to an oxygen rich environment (air)...

Now according to a study done by  D. J. B. Dalzell and N. A. A. Macfarlane. On Brown Trout. Published in the Journal of Fish Biology Vol.55 Issue 2 pages 301-315; ...The mechanism of iron toxicity in fish appears to be physiological accumulation on the gills themselves, causing clogging and gill damage. Not inside of any tissue or blood.

 Maybe fish in AP systems being exposed to iron at levels of 2-3ppm ( or heck probably much more in some backyard set ups) are being harvested long before before the damage takes a significant toll? 

Also, ferric iron seems to clump together after time, forming big enough clumps to be settled out and removed by aquaculturists. (And in AP probably sticks to sludge as well as calcium and/or phosphate precipitates the way that iron will (along with Zinc, Magnesium etc... in hydroponic applications). People removing sludge from their systems are probably removing a fair amount of Iron as well, I'm guessing.

See:  Nutrient cycle and sludge production during different stagesof red tilapia (Oreochromissp.) growth in a recirculatingaquaculture system Gholamreza Rafiee, Che Roos Saad...that Terri Mikkola recently turned us on to...

I sure wish somebody who is a 'fish person' could shed some light on the issue as to why everything in aquaculture literature suggest numbers that are so damn low in regards to both ferric as well as (esp it seems) ferrous iron, yet there appears to be no problems what so ever with numbers 10 times the suggested limits in many commercial AP settings?

I sure hope that one of the Masters can put this to some rest for us 

 

rick kennerly said:

Water is not water.  I just tested my well.  While no fecal coliform, it did have 1.34 ppm for dissolived iron where the state limit for drinking water is 0.3 ppm max and pH of 7.47.  I'm still trying to work out what that much iron means for fish, but I think it's not good.

Attaching a chlorine filter from a city supply might give considerably better --more balanced-- water.