System Update (Greenhouse & Aquabundance system)

[Jim Logios]

Greetings everyone. I purchased a system from Sylvia many months ago, but had to do some prep work before going ahead...that prep work being, getting a greenhouse up. Well, that's finally done, and this past week, I assembled the whole thing, filled it with water, and am now in the process of cycling it.

Yesterday was day one. The setup is complete and operational. The unit is in the greenhouse.

On day one, I added the dry mix included in the cycle kit.

On day two (today), I first tested the ph (8.2) and the ammonia levels (8ppm). Immediately after this, I added 5ml (2 tsp) of ammonia from the cycle kit. I did not check ammonia levels after this, but it seems to me that I was already starting out with 8ppm of ammonia, that adding ammonia would boost the levels even higher… I assume that as nitrites and nitrates climb, ammonia will go down? At what levels should I be concerned with if ammonia keeps rising?

2. I was watching one of Murray's videos, and the question I have is… Is the ideal way (with a flood and drain system such as Sylvia's) is to fill the grow bed up to about an inch under the top layer so as not to expose the top layer to water… thereby inhibiting algae? Then if so, and I had a better timer, would it be better to simply allow the water to reach the desired level, and then to have the timer switch to off? Or, is it better to allow the water to flood the bed for a full 15 minutes?

Thanks! and I'm sure i'll have many more questions.

Jim

[Kobus Jooste]

Thanks Harold - Indeed, it looks like we are talking about over introducing ammonia to the point of 3 or 4 times max recommendation - resulting in the toxic effects of the chemical in high volume coming into play. Another reason why some people perhaps prefer to cycle on urea, which is far more difficult to elevate to danger levels as compared to pure ammonia (which, we must remember, is not the typical form in which it is introduced into nature - again, it is toxic enough for most organisms that produce it to flush it out in relatively dilute concentrations).

Harold Sukhbir said:

Hi Kobus,

I remember reading about the process of inhibiting bacteria growth with too high ammonia. I can't find the exact paper right now but this article mentions it   http://malawicichlids.com/mw01017.htm

[TCLynx]

Yea, I've read it in various places where others have mentioned in but I don't have any scientific paper sources bookmarked to share.  I expect a main point about the ammonia inhibiting other bacteria besides the ones that convert ammonia is that ammonia is used as a harsh cleanser.  I'm having trouble finding full text papers but it seems that some papers believe it is the pH required to have lots of free ammonia is more responsible for the inhibition of the Nitrobacter than the actual high ammonia level directly.

 

In a newly cycling up system I have seen where stopping dosing for many days does set the cycling back (and I mean letting both ammonia and nitrite drop to 0 and still not dose again for a week in a not completely cycled system or very newly cycled system.  I've seen this when I have to travel and can't be around to dose every few days.)  However, in a mature gravel bed system I've left such a system fishless for weeks and not dosed and I've found I can add enough ammonia to dose to over 4 ppm and the next day (way less than 24 hours later) the ammonia and nitrite are both back to 0 ppm.  So I don't believe that you need to keep dosing the really high amount in a mature system to keep the bacteria from dieing off, the slow trickle of ammonia from decomposing solids in the beds can maintain at least a minimal bio-filter at the ready to bump back up to a higher load in fairly short order (of course watch feeding and water quality when adding a bigger fish load back into a system that has been fishless for a while but it isn't like you need to go through a complete re-cycle up unless something has been done to sterilize and kill off the bacteria.)

 

Now I do know that Friendlies has done things to slow the conversion of ammonia to nitrite during cycling of a new system with fish but I expect that is more to keep from killing the fish while the nitrite spike is really high.

[TCLynx]

Ok I've done some more searching and it seems the papers that talked of the lower levels of ammonia being inhibitory to the nitrite oxidation are probably a bit older and probably from the days of thinking the different bacteria was responsible anyway.

Here is a newer paper that seems to place the inhibitory effect on different factors than the ammonia level itself.

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/s05-044

[Kobus Jooste]

Thank you for the effort TCKLynx - much appreciated.  I am basing all my assumptions of maintaining the population of nitrifying bacteria on the concept that the input of Ammonia regulates the size of the nitrifying bacteria population.  If there is a source, as in a mature AP system, it will get it.  I'm working on the context of "something must be available to keep the population optimal". In aquaculture references, I think they will talk about the maintenance load (I cannot find the freaking paper now either) because when the fish come out, there is not anything else causing the ammonia trickle.

TCLynx said:

Ok I've done some more searching and it seems the papers that talked of the lower levels of ammonia being inhibitory to the nitrite oxidation are probably a bit older and probably from the days of thinking the different bacteria was responsible anyway.

Here is a newer paper that seems to place the inhibitory effect on different factors than the ammonia level itself.

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/s05-044

[wes]

If you are using a flood and drain system with an auto siphon the rate of flow it pretty much determined by what speed is kosher with causing the auto siphon to trip off correctly, if it fills to fast it won’t stop running the water out the overflow keeping it siphoning out with no break in the water leaving the grow bed and if it is to slow it won’t cause the auto siphon to engage and will just drain out via the overflow tube once it reaches the top of the overflow tube. Either way  it keeps the bed full of water and never draining out correctly. You have to throttle the out flow to the point where the grow beds water level gets to the overflow tube that there is just enough suction to start drain process and then the air gap at the bottom of the siphon will break the drain cycle when is has gotten the grow bed down to the drained out level, then the fill cycle starts all over again. I hope this made some sense.

 

[Jim Logios]

Wes,

 

The system is one I got from Sylvia.  It is a flood/drain system, but no siphon.  Basically, a timer is used to cut the power on and off... thereby filling and flooding the growbed for a full 15 minutes before cutting off and allowing the water to drain back into the fishtank.

wes said:

If you are using a flood and drain system with an auto siphon the rate of flow it pretty much determined by what speed is kosher with causing the auto siphon to trip off correctly, if it fills to fast it won’t stop running the water out the overflow keeping it siphoning out with no break in the water leaving the grow bed and if it is to slow it won’t cause the auto siphon to engage and will just drain out via the overflow tube once it reaches the top of the overflow tube. Either way  it keeps the bed full of water and never draining out correctly. You have to throttle the out flow to the point where the grow beds water level gets to the overflow tube that there is just enough suction to start drain process and then the air gap at the bottom of the siphon will break the drain cycle when is has gotten the grow bed down to the drained out level, then the fill cycle starts all over again. I hope this made some sense.

 

[wes]

Oh okay then well no need for all the above info, but now you have a better ideal of how a system with a auto siphon works. Sounds like to me her system is setup to put it in play and it does all the rest for you. You do need it to fill the bed up to at least one inch below your media and then have it drain back out, so what ever amount of time it takes for the pump to fill the bed up to that level with the timer is what you are aiming for.

 

[TCLynx]

Of course during initial cycle up, you may run the pump more often or for longer letting more water flow through the bed and down the top of the stand pipe to give more time and aeration for the bacteria to get established.

[Sylvia Bernstein]

Hi all.  I didn't look at this all day yesterday and now I'm regretting that!  What a great discussion about cycling!  Thanks for all the research, TC.

[Jim Logios]

It's been about three weeks since I started this project (this includes the one week 80% water change), and here are today's results:

Ph 7.4, Nitrite 0.0, Nitrate 80ppm, Ammonia 0.0.  I dosed the tank with 10ml ammonia 24 hours earlier which gave me a reading of 4ppm, and today it's at 0.

Am I fully cycled? Do I need to do this again, or just keep feeding it smaller amounts of ammonia until I get the fish? (I'll be picking some up from the Fish Wagon next week). What should I be aiming for when daily dosing the ammonia?

Now to my next concern... The greenhouse gets pretty warm (of course! It's a greenhouse, I know) but we've had lots of rain and clouds lately, and still the water temp in the ft has already hit 85. It actually went over 100 last week. I plan on keeping bluegills, but I'm sure even they can't survive consistent temps over 90. I've heard shade cloths are the way to go. Is it best to shade the sun coming in to the greenhouse, or to shade the ft?

Finally, I read somewhere (I think TC may of posted it) about the best timer cycling method to preserve cooler temps in the summer, and warmer water temps in the winter). I can't find the thread however. TC?

I am delighted at the growth rate of the fruits and veggies I already have growing.

Cheers for now all!

 

Jim

[Jim Logios]

Hello again...It's been about three weeks since I started this project (this includes the one week 80% water change), and here are today's results:

Ph 7.4, Nitrite 0.0, Nitrate 80ppm, Ammonia 0.0.  I dosed the tank with 10ml ammonia 24 hours earlier which gave me a reading of 4ppm, and today it's at 0.

Am I fully cycled? Do I need to do this again, or just keep feeding it smaller amounts of ammonia until I get the fish? (I'll be picking some up from the Fish Wagon next week). What should I be aiming for when daily dosing the ammonia?

Now to my next concern... The greenhouse gets pretty warm (of course! It's a greenhouse, I know) but we've had lots of rain and clouds lately, and still the water temp in the ft has already hit 85. It actually went over 100 last week. I plan on keeping bluegills, but I'm sure even they can't survive consistent temps over 90. I've heard shade cloths are the way to go. Is it best to shade the sun coming in to the greenhouse, or to shade the ft?

Finally, I read somewhere (I think TC may of posted it) about the best timer cycling method to preserve cooler temps in the summer, and warmer water temps in the winter). I can't find the thread however. TC?

I am delighted at the growth rate of the fruits and veggies I already have growing.

Cheers for now all!

 

Jim

[TCLynx]

What is your nitrite level the day after dosing to 4 ppm of ammonia?  If both ammonia and nitrite reach 0 within 24 hours of dosing then you are in really good shape.  I would probably keep dosing to about 1 ppm daily until about 48 hours before you head out to pick up the fish.

 

Your nitrates are kinda high but that is pretty common with a new system fishlessly cycled.  Plant greedy plants like tomatoes and such.

 

I would open up the greenhouse as much as possible.  Here in FL removable or at least roll up sides were a must.  Some shade to reduce the greenhouse temps some for summer would be good since your plants won't like 100 degree heat either  Some aluminet over the outside of the greenhouse for summer might be appropriate.  Plus extra shade over the fish tank since your fish tank water doesn't need sun as that will cause algae and problems with dissolved oxygen.  Blue gill can survive the 90 F water but you will have trouble keeping the dissolved oxygen high enough to keep them from suffering from the lack of dissolved oxygen through the heat and that will greatly reduce their growth rate if they are gasping for air instead of eating.

 

To moderate water temps in a flood and drain system, if you can switch to constant flood, you might be able to moderate temperatures a bit.  Like in summer if you are trying to keep things cooler, run the beds constant flood from when the heat starts to build till until the temperature drops.  In winter you might do the opposite to keep water temps from dropping as much as in run constant flood over night in winter.  Some people try to do the opposite and shut down the system during the extremes but that just leaves the plants to bake or freeze and you will still loose out a bit on the first several floods and drains after the shut down period and of course in summer you can't afford to loose the aeration and filtration during the hottest part of the day.  So If the system has the water capacity (as in a sump tank) to switch between constant flood and flood and drain I would adjust the timer such that during the day in summer the pump could run constantly and then overnight it would switch to flood and drain and vice versa for winter.  Just so you know, I've never run long term that way since I use indexing valves to flood my beds in sequence so switching to constant flood is not as easy.