Ponds. Cisterns and building them.

[nathaniel taylor]

Any one have experience with making them? LINKs to share?

 

Notable new horizons?

 

[David Waite]

Nathan I have built ponds from 100 gal to 500.000 gal using Shockcrete, Gunite, bentonite, pond liners and plain ol mortar. What do you want to build and where. How big and what building skills or money do you want to spend. I,ll help you anyway I can.

[nathaniel taylor]

Thank you david.

 

I am curious about the design of say (starting with this half baked plan)  hdpe tanks in ground and what sort of support they need. A tank I am looking at is roughly 1700gallons. I am only burying it about 4ft in with the last 1ft above soil. I am planning on plastic welding the whole shape myself. I have considerable fabrication skills. I could go with a pond liner, my soil is easy to dig sand. But I am fearful of the soil creeping when the tank is not full and/or deforming the shape.

 

What I am really looking for is cheap easy and long lasting... not always a simple equation.

 

Along side of this I am also building some cisterns but will probably just buy the pre-molded ones.

 

My point establishing this thread is that below ground tanks in an urban environment offer asthetic and spacesaving features that above ground tanks lack. With planning I can make the most of my meager space and still have room to produce. In ground, the tanks are insulated and shaded.

 

 

 

[David Waite]

Nathan I agree on inground for thermal mass and appearance. Really like the idea of plastic welding your own tanks. I know you know this but a round shape is self supporting and the soil support is not critical. If you build a custom shape then soil compaction/support will be critical just as in pond construction. I would shy away from draining the tank to much due to hdpe has no strength resisting ground pressure inward. Could design system with a sump and keep the inground tank full for the fish. My tank drains about 4 inches. I have worked in the construction field for 30 years and never got to work around plastic welding. Would love to watch your progress on that. Good luck.................D

nathaniel taylor said:

Thank you david.

 

I am curious about the design of say (starting with this half baked plan)  hdpe tanks in ground and what sort of support they need. A tank I am looking at is roughly 1700gallons. I am only burying it about 4ft in with the last 1ft above soil. I am planning on plastic welding the whole shape myself. I have considerable fabrication skills. I could go with a pond liner, my soil is easy to dig sand. But I am fearful of the soil creeping when the tank is not full and/or deforming the shape.

 

What I am really looking for is cheap easy and long lasting... not always a simple equation.

 

Along side of this I am also building some cisterns but will probably just buy the pre-molded ones.

 

My point establishing this thread is that below ground tanks in an urban environment offer asthetic and spacesaving features that above ground tanks lack. With planning I can make the most of my meager space and still have room to produce. In ground, the tanks are insulated and shaded.

 

 

 

[nathaniel taylor]

 

In a plastic tank I am wondering what minimum radius can withstand my soil type and pressure.The water table comes up to about 8ft in the winter! but isnt a problem.

 

Another direction I am looking at is a sort of frame and wall hybrid. As if i ever needed to dig out the tank a cement one would be a huge mess. Whereas a light'ish frame I could crane out. (clay/mud is not a problem)

 

The sump is the way to go. Zero bottom penetrations for failure. I can use air stones to lift waste to the surface.

 

Light wieght and structurally strong is what I am looking for. And an edge towards creativity.

 

Leaving the tank full is probably the best solution for ease/cost of the design.

 

 

I have been looking at plastic welding for sometime. China ug them again... makes most of the welders and they are getting considerably cheaper. I was reading about it in some AG training books, watched you tube videos. Other than careful procedures to insure good strong welds it is very simliar to welding say aluminum. Learn the technique and go slow to go fast. I have an oven in my shop which I have been torturing plastic bits, fusing them together and so on. HDPE is very easy to work with so long as you dont OVER heat it (are the fans on?). As usual getting to 'know' the material. I think that the cost invested could be easily recouped as there is so much hdpe scrap floating around!

 

Do you think there is a ply that could survive in ground? I just have the feeling that there is no ply other than say something expensive like phenolic that could offer strength, longevity, and inground resistance... I have been slogging around in the marine materials web and havent found anything satifactory. Fiberglass is not an option.

 

 

 

David Waite said:

Nathan I agree on inground for thermal mass and appearance. Really like the idea of plastic welding your own tanks. I know you know this but a round shape is self supporting and the soil support is not critical. If you build a custom shape then soil compaction/support will be critical just as in pond construction. I would shy away from draining the tank to much due to hdpe has no strength resisting ground pressure inward. Could design system with a sump and keep the inground tank full for the fish. My tank drains about 4 inches. I have worked in the construction field for 30 years and never got to work around plastic welding. Would love to watch your progress on that. Good luck.................D

nathaniel taylor said:

Thank you david.

 

I am curious about the design of say (starting with this half baked plan)  hdpe tanks in ground and what sort of support they need. A tank I am looking at is roughly 1700gallons. I am only burying it about 4ft in with the last 1ft above soil. I am planning on plastic welding the whole shape myself. I have considerable fabrication skills. I could go with a pond liner, my soil is easy to dig sand. But I am fearful of the soil creeping when the tank is not full and/or deforming the shape.

 

What I am really looking for is cheap easy and long lasting... not always a simple equation.

 

Along side of this I am also building some cisterns but will probably just buy the pre-molded ones.

 

My point establishing this thread is that below ground tanks in an urban environment offer asthetic and spacesaving features that above ground tanks lack. With planning I can make the most of my meager space and still have room to produce. In ground, the tanks are insulated and shaded.

 

 

 

[David Waite]

Nathan if you are looking for a ply I would recommend plain ol pond liner. The rubber liners have a life of 20 years. Other than fiberglass I havent worked with any other materials  that would hold up. Just dont put wood around your liner as termites are known to eat into the liner. I personally like cement for my inground ponds. I gunite the ponds and then paint with pool paint. It is bullet proof and leaks are a breeze to repair.

[nathaniel taylor]

I was thinking a pressure treated ply.... with say a foundation treatment over that... however I am not sold on putting toxic ply into the ground.

 

Pond liner I am not sure if thats what I want as I need more vertical walls.But Maybe a combo of some wall liner.

 

Gunnite is looking good. but it is very Heavy. Also; I have no idea how to price that in my area.But I'll look into it.

 

I have poured walls, slabs, built forms, for my 9ft deep basement. Took me 3 months...but never sprayed concrete. Maybe its fun? Do you have an idea how long it takes to build a 1700gal sized pond?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Harold Sukhbir]

Hi Nathaniel,

These can be constructed quickly DIY and liner ordered and disassembled and relocated in a short space of time.

http://www.storagetanksolutions.com/default.asp 

[David Waite]

Nathan Gunite is the cadillac of concrete as it is used in pool construction. The down side is it is very expensive for the small application. I have the compressor and equip which costs over 70 k. I built tons of ponds with plain ol ferrous cement. Which is really a mortar with 3/8 rock. You can easily lay this on in layers over wire in any shape ;you want. I have built ponds using pond liners and I honestly hate them. They always seem to get a hole in them from the dog or whatever. You can cover them with rock but they still seem to get the pin hole leak somewhere. Burying a poly tank is cheap and quick but its strength is limited on ground pressure. I used a 1000 gal stock tank and it is working great. Just keep it full. You can easily wire and lay cement on a 1700 gal pond with 2 guys in a day and a half if you have a mixer. If you are doing it all your self it will take probably 1 day to wire and 4 to cement it. I paint my ponds because the pool paints are pot water safe and it is fast. Send pics of your site when you start and these guys will flood you with info and ideas. takereasy..............D

[Harold Sukhbir]

Hi All,

At the same time this discussion was posted ericjf7 posted this method of construction and gave me permission to share here

http://aquaponicscommunity.com/photo/p1000612-1?commentId=4778851%3...

[nathaniel taylor]

Thanks amigos.

 

I am looking at a few solutions. Thanks for the time frame on building with ferrous cement. I was wondering. I used a pump truck when I poured the foundation/basement of my house but that took 3months (9foot stem wall with a 36"sq foot.) (& yes I ran the job myself)

I am looking into poly tanks as I can weld them together and build a structure for them. I may make my own as I can cnc the poly and weld it into the shapes I want.

 

[David Waite]

Nathan I have lined concrete ditches with a 30 degree slope using pump trucks and a 6 sack concrete mix. You could easily build a pond using the same thing. The sides of a pond really dont need any verticle walls to do what you want it to accomplish. Dig then wire the pond and place concrete with the pumper truck and a rake. Bull float and walla you are done. Let dry and paint or seal. I dont use concrete wire on my ponds it is too stiff for the small radiuses. I use a heavy stucco wire or 1 inch chicken wire. Easier to work with in small confines.

nathaniel taylor said:

Thanks amigos.

 

I am looking at a few solutions. Thanks for the time frame on building with ferrous cement. I was wondering. I used a pump truck when I poured the foundation/basement of my house but that took 3months (9foot stem wall with a 36"sq foot.) (& yes I ran the job myself)

I am looking into poly tanks as I can weld them together and build a structure for them. I may make my own as I can cnc the poly and weld it into the shapes I want.

 

[Harold Sukhbir]

Hi Nathaniel,

Very interesting about making your own poly tanks, can you share this process with us? The tank manufacturing companies here are limited in their range of products and It would be great to have other options available.

nathaniel taylor said:

Thanks amigos.

 

I am looking at a few solutions. Thanks for the time frame on building with ferrous cement. I was wondering. I used a pump truck when I poured the foundation/basement of my house but that took 3months (9foot stem wall with a 36"sq foot.) (& yes I ran the job myself)

I am looking into poly tanks as I can weld them together and build a structure for them. I may make my own as I can cnc the poly and weld it into the shapes I want.