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Comment by Jon Parr on February 8, 2013 at 11:55pm

Great vid, Rob, Thanks. I think I have you beat in slower growth I have seedlings in trays that germinated in late July that are perfect little 1-2" seedlings STILL. That's six months of stalled growth, and they appear to be perfectly healthy. Some types are still viable to grow out, some are permanently stalled, and most go straight to bolting. They were started in starter plugs from IHort here in Cali, which are brown starter plugs made from Douglas Fir bark and a spongy polymer, with little to zero nutrient value. I get near 100% germination, and they grow rapidly to small seedlings, and then simply stay like that until I put them in the rafts. For those that got planted immediately (early Sept), they packed on full size in 4 weeks (actually a day or two less). 

That photo was taken October 9, and we have had 2 harvests since then (from the same seedlings, btw). This is Grand Rapids Red from Johnny's seeds, on special, 5000 pelleted seeds for $2.85, which was kick ass. I wish I bought more. Now, however, the seedlings that were moved to the rafts after the third harvest (mid Dec) have not grown a lick, or went straight to seed. They are not in a greenhouse, no light, no heat, no insulation, nothing. We had a nice fall, but temps fell rapidly in December, my water went from 60 to 46 in 10 days, and we had a little frost. The temp crash coincided with an acid crash (KH of zero, from really hard well water with a pH of 9 only 3 months beforehand) and my tough-as-nails carp fingerlings (about 3000 of them, holy hell) caught a funky itch and died, which is pathetic because I know better. Honestly, I was spread to thin at the time, and I thought the condition would wait. It didn't.

Anyway, and this is especially for you Bob, gardening is so full of variables, that results are bound to vary. Even if you cross all the t's and dot the i's, there are sometimes surprises. For the most part, the variables are predictable. If you get your process dialed, you will get stellar results. If you don't, then you might get lucky, and you might not. Soil takes a lot of process out of the equation, and thus more predictable results with less input. However, I personally have seen incredible growth with aquaponics over soil, in nearly every type of plant tried (arugula being a major exception). 

I started this whole aquaponics passion because I hate gophers, more than Bill Murray in Caddyshack. I personally started with hydro, but wanted to source my nutrients organically and locally, local meaning in my yard. This led to aquaponics, and I haven't regretted it (though I wish I had spent more time on bioponics, and I think your venture there will be rewarding). 

Comment by Bob Campbell on February 8, 2013 at 8:23pm

@Vlad - You're right any heated enclosure will be expensive, and if I were to supplement light in a soil based green house it would once again be the same.  But with tilapia in the tanks heating is not an option.  

It may be that I could redesign my grow room to allow more light in, and then do away with the CMH lighting, but I wanted to raise tilapia so I built a well insulated grow room at the expense of glazing.  

My new bioponic green house will allow a lot more natural light, and heat from a rocket mass stove will be an option.  Used only if I continue to grow out of season which I will admit has been fun.

For me soil less gardening has been a lot more prone to nutrient problems.  I have learned how to determine (with your help) the source of my nutrient problems, but plants are slow to show the signs and a lot of damage can occur by the time it's corrected.  

I think we agree that it takes experience to become really good at growing vegetables and even more so in a soil less garden.  But the videos that got me hooked on aquaponics tended to gloss over the added challenges.  Since I'm promoting soil less gardening, I feel it's important to present the difficulties as probable rather than isolated.  I want my readers to know right up front that this is a controlled science, and not something that happens on it's own. I also feel that it's not ethical to let new aquapons believe the extraordinary claims.  Sure some people have exceptional harvests, but we must all deal with our own climate and water conditions.  You are one of the few who have over come a substantially adverse growing zone. But you are also one of the most intelligent people on this planet. 

Comment by Paul Letby on February 8, 2013 at 5:29pm

Nice cat Rob.  Keep posting everyone, I'm learning lots.

Comment by Vlad Jovanovic on February 8, 2013 at 5:15pm

Bob, many of the things you mentioned are not problems exclusive to AP. Poor ventilation=mold problems no matter the nutrient input method. CFL's suck as for growing plants...no matter the nutrient input method. Certain spaces need to be heated...no matter the nutrient input method (which is why proper HID lighting kills two birds with one stone and likely cheaper than the alternative...as well as helping to produce faster grow out times and healthier plants)...And I do believe AP systems, like all other bio-ponic input methods can have less instances of certain diseases...but so can a mineral hydro system that has been inoculated with different types beneficial organisms (even traditional hydroponocists have finally caught on that sterility might not be the best way to go). As far as nutrient deficiencies go, these can and are easily and safely remedied in a number of ways. Some ways are more cost effective than others. Some are more effective and somewhat dependent on set and setting, as well as the operators knowledge base and desires. Nutrient deficiencies are (or for the most part should be) wholly and totally predictable IF you know what the hell is going on (and why) within the system you are trying to run. I'm sure this can be daunting for someone who was taught by someone who themselves have no clue why things happen (or don't happen) in a given number of circumstances, and was told "you just feed the fish and watch your cucumbers/tomatoes grow, bloom and bear fruit"! (They can and will, IF you provide a scenario that will allow them to)...

Running  "a heated grow room with supplemental lighting" is always more expensive than using the Sun (once again, no matter the nutrient input method...AP, vermiponics, pee-ponics, organic hydro, mineral hydro, or potted soil, or whatever)...always has been and always will be no matter what the "ponic" prefix is...

One of the biggest reasons we see so many pics here of plants doing lousy...even in 'controlled' indoor grows (besides, disease mostly brought on through the fault of the operator by various mechanisms, poor lighting) is as you say 'nutrient imbalance'...For most of this I blame the marketeers, selling AP while pretending to teach it. But people themselves are almost as much to "blame"...It's almost as if they want to believe it...want to be lied to ...(I'm sure that's not the case, but it does sometimes seem that way a little...

Comment by Bob Campbell on February 8, 2013 at 3:39pm

I guess I should clarify my position.  I will continue to grow with aquaponics, in fact I'm expanding into an unused greenhouse.  But I tell people about AP on a regular basis and post a blog about AP, so I really feel the need to be clear about the steep learning curve and expectationsI see the wheels turning in peoples heads and feel it would be unfair to let anyone who has not had both gardening and aquaculture experience believe AP is a simple (fish poop / vegetables grow) cycle. 

Many of the popular aquaponic videos contain a serious gap in reality.  Pictures of low Brix plants abound on this site,and quite often we see eager little seedling and no followup to the harvest.  I can only imagine it's because the harvest was less than impressive.

My first season was indoors during the winter.  It was poor, but I learned quite a bit and had a few successes.  Then summer came and my 2nd crop outdoors was OK.  The tomatoes grew very well.  This winter back in the grow room, I have run into problems with mold, and nutrient imbalance and the cost of running a heated grow room with supplemental light has been very expensive.  My outdoor system is surviving the cold, The plants are growing VERY slow but they look healthy and on warm days I can see them growing. 

I'm now an evangelist about growing in season with bioponics or at least local fish species.  People who live in Hawaii could drop a seed anywhere and it would grow, so it's also important to not to be enticed by videos from climate zones where you can do no wrong.   It's fun to grow in a heated grow room, but it's impractical so don't expect to grow pineapples unless you can afford it. Mine are doing well.

Comment by John Cubit on February 8, 2013 at 2:26pm

I have been following this discussion and I feel for you Bob.  I too can be easily wowed but I honestly never expected much.  Remembering I started out of desperation when last years habanero crop for me was a waste.  Living in the NE US, is tough since growing some things I need for my hot pepper products is boom or bust and last season busted me.  This was all soil planting and my chilies, and jalapenos did great but they are not the stars of our products.  It is ridiculously expensive to buy raw materials so I turn to AP.  Not as the source to grow habaneros but as a source to breed a secure stock of seedlings to plant in soil and on that note it has been a success.  With a few months left I have at least 10 plants ready hit the soil and one pepper can yield more potential plants cheaper than me buying 500 plugs and having them shipped from California.

I am not a farmer, but I did come from an aquaculture background, I just got into sauces and salsa as a hobby and that is expanding.  AP has been very difficult to get started but I have lettuce everyday ready to eat from my 10 gallon tote as well as tomatoes, broccoli, and snow peas.  Rob was exactly right on start small, although some told me I was too small (keep jokes to yourself) with a 20 gal fish tank and a 10 gal tote.  But the 3 goldfish left are big and hungry and I have plants.  I will dream of the day that I get a greenhouse like Vlad filled with habanero plants and tomato plants but until then we go with a 9x10 this spring and setup next year when we buy a new home with some land.  I owe a lot of my current success on suggestions I got from Vlad, Rob and TC.  I will agree that AP is not for the impatient, but once it is running and you find your comfort level at doing it, it runs well.

So even if you might get out of AP, I still see it as a good addition to my normal soil farming, with a solid place in the future of Zombie Jac's Hot Stuff!

Comment by Vlad Jovanovic on February 8, 2013 at 2:25pm

Yup, I've done that and it pretty much sucks ...

Ironically enough that lettuce pictured is called Red Summer Crisp, hehe. Also growing a COS Romaine...I'm real happy with both (well as happy as I could expect with the weather and all. it's currently 2C in the GH). 

Comment by Rob Torcellini on February 8, 2013 at 2:03pm

Vlad, I couldn't have said it better myself!      Sometime, you should try planting a couple of seeds like I did...just drop a couple in a pot and leave it alone....not other inputs except leaving it in the raft.  I would be curious to see if you have the same crappy results as I do.

What's your variety of lettuce you're growing?  They look great!

Comment by Vlad Jovanovic on February 8, 2013 at 10:58am

(the three comments below were typed as one...there's a 4000 character limit though...so sorry...

Bob, here's a pic of that same lettuce at about my 5 week mark. Taken Jan.29th (you can check my dates on the my photos page :) ... Definitely not sell-able size, but I was not expecting them to be...hype is just that...hype

Comment by Vlad Jovanovic on February 8, 2013 at 10:49am

Sorry for the silence...It's been crazy here...our  orders for veggies just keep getting bigger and bigger (which is good) and I'm trying to get a million other things done before I leave for Cali...

Rob makes a good point about climate...There are those (I won't call anyone out by name) who claim(ed) lettuce in 4 weeks, which even for those climes (a tropical island) is a still bit misleading...because it turns out "what they really meant was..." that's 4 weeks in a growout trough, they forgot to mention the 10-15 days the lettuce spent on the seedling table...etc...etc...etc...then there are those who for some reason feel the need to repeat such claims publicly...while not having achieved (or even tried to) or verified those results in their (or any for that matter) set and setting. I've not EVER been able to get a harvest-able head of lettuce in 5-1/2 weeks (and even that is pushing it, they could have been left to grow another day or two), and that was in super duper ultra everything 'optimal' conditions...combination mineral and organic hydro...controlled temps, ventilation, all 13 essential elements in their proper amounts (EC 1.3 to 1.4), LOTS of O2, growth regulators (auxins and cytokinins), temp and humidity sensors, MH lighting etc...So no, I didn't think for a second that I would have AP lettuce in 5 weeks. AP has it's benefits, but it's not faery magic folks...It is still an input/output system...Anyhow...

Basically my strategy for the winter is this: I plant 164 net pots (hydroton) with 328 seeds, so 2 to a pot (I do this to save a bit of electricity as you'll see later on). I germinate them where it is always warm (in the house). Water is done with a spray bottle. Some sprout within 24 hours but most at about 36. After a couple days when they start stretching out...I put 328 seedling in the GH in an enclosed insulated space under a table (it's insulated with bubble wrap tin foil). There is a 250 MH bulb and ballast under there as well for both heat and light. At night, they are under the table with the light on...Same goes for on cold days (This is where I save on my electricity by having them 2 to a pot...One 250Watt MH can cover that area when small seedlings are in question...This would not be the case if they were all in their separate net pots and took up twice the foot print because I'd then need another light. On sunny days they go on top of the table and I turn the light off. I air prune the roots which kills the tip of the first tap root and causes many lateral roots to then emerge. Every 8 to 10 hours I'll float them in AP water for about 10 minutes. They put on a lot of leaf mass really quickly in those first 10-12 days. Then I separate them one to a net pot and put them in a nursery trough. There is a piece of polyethylene film (like a tent) surrounding the nursery trough. Closed at night with the lights on. Open during the day...unless it's super fucking cold in which case I only leave one of the two 400Watt MH bulbs running one hour off, one hour on (timer) to keeps things nice and warm. Needless to say, here they put on a hell of a lot of leaf mass really quickly (week or so). I then put them out into the main production troughs to fend for themselves with the crappy low winter sun and the cold temps. 

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