Fish starting to die...again

[Michael Welber]

I seem to have gotten to that time when my fish, those around 3 inches long, start to die for reasons I can't determine. Two this week. The pH is OK though a bit low (and I'm adding lime to raise it), the ammonia is zero and the nitrite is zero. I am transitioning the larger fish, around 6 inches, to the adult food though they don't seem real interested in it. My plan is to exchange out about 1/3 of the water today to see if that helps. Any other suggestions? 

[Michael Welber]

The only thing I have noticed is that before the second to last fish died it was hanging out in a shallow area of the tank and not moving much. I took it out and put it into a separate tank with aeration and it was dead the next morning. None of the fish are gasping at the surface. None. Not even the one that died. The death yesterday was unexpected. 

[Jon Parr]

Aluminum cooling fins are probably okay, it's copper I'd be weary of. I think mist modern coolers use aluminum. Just look before you assume. It will get better

Vlad, do you know of a practical way to precipitate and remove the zinc? Like your struvite method of removing phosphorous?

[Vlad Jovanovic]

Well, I've never purposely set about in doing anything like that, but I know Iron oxide hydroxide (also called Ferric hydroxide, and Iron (III) hydroxide and granular ferric oxide...all the same thing) can and is used for sequestering metals like copper, zinc, cadmium etc...You will in the process probably remove a good deal of phosphates as well...and probably a bit of organic acids (humic blablabla)...Should be fish safe though.

But I'm not sure if there is a quick and practical way to apply this to an AP system without spending some cash on a small fluidized bed reactor. (Building one or buying one...check Craig list or maybe a kick-ass aquarium shop?)...

Other than something like that, I'm not too sure... 

[matthew ferrell]

Your so smart it hurts to read your post.  Love it.

Vlad Jovanovic said:

This may be a good opportunity to cuddle up with a good book, (and a scalpel, surgical gloves and magnifying glass)...seriously...I'm not a big fish person, but I do know that most metal toxicity (copper, lead, zinc) will leave some tell-tale damage on the gill epithelium...might be time to do some digging (or cutting)...

I'm pretty sure you (that study) need to take into account water hardness and alkalinity, and not just pH (though the 3 are interconnected) higher pH usually means higher carbonate alkalinity, and it is this carbonate alkalinity and the subsequent complexing of metals such as copper, iron and in all likely-hood zinc as well (probably most metal cations that we'd run across) with these carbonates that will alleviate toxicity issues somewhat as "pH" (but more correctly carbonate alkalinity, or carbonate harness, called kH) rises. As the metals react, transition to tri-valent form, form various complexes and/or precipitates (like malachite, azurite in the case of copper)...they become less harmful or even harmless...I'm sure that study probably addressed this alkalinity issue (haven't read it yet), just that we here in AP-land seem to have gotten comfy equating high pH with high kH (and this is probably the case most of the time, but then there are those other times...)....

This is how it works in nature, but don't anyone count on hard tap water saving any fish from zinc toxicity in a recirculating AP setting...that would be silly...Like on par with Cleveland Browns winning the SuperBowl type of silly-hope...

[matthew ferrell]

I had no issues with it in Alabama, as I once ran tap water in my system overnight.  I also refilled/topped off the system right off the tap.  This is not a good idea, but it worked for me with Tilapia. 

Vlad you are correct Sodium thiosulfate is a way to neutralize chloromine.

Vlad Jovanovic said:

Also, follow up with TCLynx or Rupert, or anybody who has experience with chloromine. (I'm on well water with no chlorine or chloromine), but it's my understanding that chloromine won't/can't just off-gas after a couple of days unlike chlorine. I think people use sodium thiosulfate or some such thing, to get rid of chloromine...but check with them or someone else who has dealt with the issue and how it relates to fish...but my understanding is that there is quite a difference between the two (chlorine/chloromine)...

[matthew ferrell]

Mr Welber,

Are you telling my you live at the beach and don't have a sack of seashell in the system?  I know it's scallop season.  Get to work.  (I'll take all the meat from the scallops)

[Michael Welber]

No scallops down here pal. However, lobster season just started, or what they call lobsters. Not your Maine delicacy. 

[Brad Moreau]

I am also having a Tilapia die off (need HELP)
all reading are good

PH High 7.8

PH 7.6

ammonia .25

nitrate 0

nitrate 0

temp 58*

only one dead yesterday, today 6 dead !!!

#2- 275 gal ibcs w / 50 +or- in each

I have around 12 fish in 80 gal tank they seam to be okay, eating some food , none dead yet

I have 10 in 30 gal tank same

just dying in ibc's

I vacuumed out all solids from both raft beds 4'x22' @ 50% water change 

I have 55 gal bio/swirl filter with solid discharge pipe that I drain 3x a week (solids only not complete filter)

should I drain & clean filter?

 4x6 gravel bed to filter 2nd ibc

plants doing great chard 24" tall kale the same, bell pepper, celery, boc coy is just starting etc.

water is clear with no smell 

And thats a 300 gal sump tank 

PH might be a little high because of water changes & yes a chlorine filter with water changes

and I put the gold fish that got sick first in the 300 gal sump & he's doing fine ?? idk
Keith Rowan said:

what are your water readings?  ph, ammonia nitrites and nitrates...it looks like you're pretty heavily stocked.... most of my tilapia made it down to 48 for a few days before i slowly started warming the water.. best not to feed at all when the water is that cold

what kind and how much filtration do you have?

 

[Keith Rowan]

50 fish in an ibc is pretty heavily stocked.. i had 50 in my tote until they got to 3" and they had to go into the pool...

get lots of aeration going in the tanks and i'd salt to 1ppt

try to get another growbed in..

in the the tanks with 12 and 10 fish, what kind of filtration are you running?

[Brad Moreau]

should I drain & clean bio/swirl filter? not cleaning the bio ball then put the bacteria fill ball back into clean filter

I vacuum out any solid from fish tank as I see them

the other fish tanks just have standard tank filters, big tank has a double & single, small tank just a single

30% water change ever week or two

I already added salt10 to 12 lbs still dying 

Keith Rowan said:

50 fish in an ibc is pretty heavily stocked.. i had 50 in my tote until they got to 3" and they had to go into the pool...

get lots of aeration going in the tanks and i'd salt to 1ppt

try to get another growbed in..

in the the tanks with 12 and 10 fish, what kind of filtration are you running?

[Jim Troyer]

How's it going Brad?

I'm wondering about the water temperature at night, check it first thing in the AM. 

Most Tilapia will tolerate down to 50 but that is the low limit. 

Did your fish have areas on their bodies that looked different? 

You may be able to discern some frostbite looking areas. 

Overcrowding may have been your issue...

all the best,

Jim

[Brad Moreau]

Hi Jim

water temp around 58*

some fish had red around fins or on inside of mouth ( around lips )

most just looked normal, but 1/2 or so had mouth open

almost back to 0 on readings

will let you know how it goes 

Thanks 

Brad
Jim Troyer said:

How's it going Brad?

I'm wondering about the water temperature at night, check it first thing in the AM. 

Most Tilapia will tolerate down to 50 but that is the low limit. 

Did your fish have areas on their bodies that looked different? 

You may be able to discern some frostbite looking areas. 

Overcrowding may have been your issue...

all the best,

Jim