Tank Ratio enhancement through carnivorous fish

[William J Silverthorn]

I'm trying to understand this concept thoroughly before designing my first Aquaponic system. I'm finding plenty of advice to say "stick to the recommended ratios" or else bad things will happen...

so if you have too many fish and not enough media space or growbed or biofilter to take care of the waste, then the fish poison themselves and die... I get that part and I dont intend to stress my fish out.

I'm wondering about the alternative deviation with too much growspace and not enough fish, would not harm the fish at all, but instead result in possibly slower growing conditions for the plants who dont have enough Nitrates to keep up with optimized growing speeds.

I was thinking of using a single IBC tote fishtank combined with 4 growbeds with autosiphons and a single continuous pump through a sequencing valve into those 4 growbeds. my first concern was the obvious straying from recommended 1 to 1 ratio, however I wonder if using higher protein feed with carnivorous breeds would provide an elevated output of more potent fertilizer that could fuel the needs of extra growbeds?

I have not found a great deal of warning in this area, since most immediate danger lies with the fish and not with the plants... so... has anyone experienced this first hand or should I experiment with it myself?

[Leo White Bear]

Here are a couple of links you may be interested in, I'll link to a few more later when I get the chance

http://aquaponicssystemonline.com/aquaponics-system-virgin-islands/

 

http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/ista/ISTA9/FullPapers/Rakocy1.doc

 

http://www.aquaponic.com.au/fact%20sheets.htm

 

http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/areera/reports/2008/2008-University-o...

This one takes a bit to download
 
Vlad Jovanovic said:

Could you please link those UVI studies that deal with media filled grow beds. Thanks.

Leo White Bear said:

I am sure that Mr Hallum is not using the 1/1 ratio fish to gallon ratio.  I looked back at the post that may have lead you to this conclusion and it seems that by me tying Mr Hallum into this post as the first statement  one may conclude this is what I believe he is doing.

  The UVI have great documented studies on this 1/1 ratio, their conclusions are that this ratio works best at the 1/1 if the water is flooded through many growbeds before returning to the FT.  The main body of solids must be removed if a multiple inlet manifold is not utilized.  If a single inlet is used to the first GB, this GB will soon fill with solids and become anerobic before the water is drained into the consecutive grow beds (over a short period of time).

  You must retain as much of the nutrient as possible to even feed the last of the grow beds as the previous GB will use up the majority of the nutrients.  With multiple GB you need a large ratio of fish to water  or suppliment these nutrients in some way.

Now we come to the oxygen depletion levels.  I will assume this through a flood and drain system.  With the F/D system the GB fill with water to a certian point and then discharge through the (lets say) bell siphon.  This draining cycle brings oxygen into the root zone thus elininating the need to oxyginate the plant root zone.  In the Deep Water Culture, the need to highly oxyginate the water becomes another concern.  The use of an oxygenated "sump tank" inline before the FT is one way of adding this or you can oxyginate the FT.
 
Vlad Jovanovic said:

William, try it out.

It does make intuitive sense doesn't it (which still isn't a guarantee that things will play out that way)? Since the breakdown of proteins/amino acids results in nitrogenous waste, it stands to reason that you should get more nitrogen fertilizer out of a higher protein feed...(if this isn't off-set by your carnivorous fish assimilating the extra protein to turn it into muscle mass...not likely...at least not entirely).

..."would one fish species be capable of higher ammonia output than the other species..."?

I bet if you would do a side by side, that that is exactly what you'd find. It's all just input/output folks...

If you find plants still aren't getting enough of what they need (and I believe...at least at first... this will largely depend on what plants you are wanting to grow) there are a bunch of cheap (or entirely free) and safe ways to boost plant essential element levels.

@Robert, I would be interested in hearing what you mean by a "sustainable basis". 

@ Leo...I'm going to go out on a limb here...but I really don't think there's a snowballs chance in Hell that Murray is stocking 1 lb of fish per 1 gallon of water...at least not without some really fancy equipment...O2 injectors and the works...even then, that would be quite a feat... 

[Robert Rowe]

Leo

by a sustainable basis I mean "I want my family to be nourished by the system without having to import food for the fish or plants. Long term in my opinion natures way is proven!

Robert

Leo White Bear said:

Here are a couple of links you may be interested in, I'll link to a few more later when I get the chance

http://aquaponicssystemonline.com/aquaponics-system-virgin-islands/

 

http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/ista/ISTA9/FullPapers/Rakocy1.doc

 

http://www.aquaponic.com.au/fact%20sheets.htm

 

http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/areera/reports/2008/2008-University-o...

This one takes a bit to download
 
Vlad Jovanovic said:

Could you please link those UVI studies that deal with media filled grow beds. Thanks.

Leo White Bear said:

I am sure that Mr Hallum is not using the 1/1 ratio fish to gallon ratio.  I looked back at the post that may have lead you to this conclusion and it seems that by me tying Mr Hallum into this post as the first statement  one may conclude this is what I believe he is doing.

  The UVI have great documented studies on this 1/1 ratio, their conclusions are that this ratio works best at the 1/1 if the water is flooded through many growbeds before returning to the FT.  The main body of solids must be removed if a multiple inlet manifold is not utilized.  If a single inlet is used to the first GB, this GB will soon fill with solids and become anerobic before the water is drained into the consecutive grow beds (over a short period of time).

  You must retain as much of the nutrient as possible to even feed the last of the grow beds as the previous GB will use up the majority of the nutrients.  With multiple GB you need a large ratio of fish to water  or suppliment these nutrients in some way.

Now we come to the oxygen depletion levels.  I will assume this through a flood and drain system.  With the F/D system the GB fill with water to a certian point and then discharge through the (lets say) bell siphon.  This draining cycle brings oxygen into the root zone thus elininating the need to oxyginate the plant root zone.  In the Deep Water Culture, the need to highly oxyginate the water becomes another concern.  The use of an oxygenated "sump tank" inline before the FT is one way of adding this or you can oxyginate the FT.
 
Vlad Jovanovic said:

William, try it out.

It does make intuitive sense doesn't it (which still isn't a guarantee that things will play out that way)? Since the breakdown of proteins/amino acids results in nitrogenous waste, it stands to reason that you should get more nitrogen fertilizer out of a higher protein feed...(if this isn't off-set by your carnivorous fish assimilating the extra protein to turn it into muscle mass...not likely...at least not entirely).

..."would one fish species be capable of higher ammonia output than the other species..."?

I bet if you would do a side by side, that that is exactly what you'd find. It's all just input/output folks...

If you find plants still aren't getting enough of what they need (and I believe...at least at first... this will largely depend on what plants you are wanting to grow) there are a bunch of cheap (or entirely free) and safe ways to boost plant essential element levels.

@Robert, I would be interested in hearing what you mean by a "sustainable basis". 

@ Leo...I'm going to go out on a limb here...but I really don't think there's a snowballs chance in Hell that Murray is stocking 1 lb of fish per 1 gallon of water...at least not without some really fancy equipment...O2 injectors and the works...even then, that would be quite a feat... 

[Leo White Bear]

Robert-

  I agree with you whole heartedly.  If modern society was to collapse where is the food to come from??  Not only our own, but for our livestock as well.  I am also interested in making my own fish feed from my land and whatever I can "dig up" or out of the ground.  I have been doing research on the subject for about six-months now collecting documentation and you tubes from third world countries.  I have accumulated quite a bit of info on making fish feed that looks promising.  With aquaponics you are on the way to being self sufficient and by growing your own veggies and protien in the same system without fertilizers or pesticides how much more off are you healthwise - sounds like the way of the future to me, now I just have to convince more people to do the same.  This won't be too difficult to do when I serve fresh fish and fresh picked veggies in the dead of our winters.  We have temps down to -20°F, a bit nipplily to say the least.

[TCLynx]

The 1:1 ratio is most likely taking about equal grow bed and fish tank volumes.  That is NOT the ideal ratio, it is simply an easy ratio for a simple system.  Basically you can't flood much more than that without causing your fish tank volume to drop too much.

A 2:1 ratio that is twice as much media filled grow bed as fish tank is actually far better.  That gives you as much filtration as needed to just about max out your fish to what is possible without having to inject pure oxygen but a 2:1 ratio does require that you have a sump tank or some other means to mitigate water level fluctuation.

DO NOT confuse the 1:1 ratio with pounds of fish or gallons of water.  There is no one recommending that you put 1 pound of fish into 1 gallon of water.  I have heard people say they stock one fish per gallon but they ARE NOT growing those fish out to 1 pound each.

I like to stock one fish per 10 gallons of fish tank volume and have at least 20 gallons of grow bed per fish.

You do not need huge numbers of fish to grow your veggies.  Remember that the UVI model is based on aquaculture where they raise lots of fish.  The UVI model removes most of the solids from the system daily and washes their net filters once or twice a week.

Yes, carnivorous fish eat higher protein feed and therefore you get more nitrates and need more filtration and more plants and this is often the case with trout since they are cool water fish and therefore the bacteria isn't as efficient at cooler temperatures so you need a bit more filtration anyway.

As to the idea of using 4 grow beds with siphons and the indexing valve.  DO NOT USE SIPHONS WITH INDEXING VALVES!  Indexing valves are meant to work with stand pipe with hole drains like for timed flood and drain.  Using siphons with an indexing valve is a recipe for disaster.

[William J Silverthorn]

really? well thanks for the warning.

I'm trying to guess what could go wrong.

I suppose that the timer could switch to another grow bed before the siphon has triggered, resulting in a flooded growbed that does not drain, and possibly removing too much water from the fish tank while also causing root rot by leaving the plants submerged for too long... altogether a pretty bad day.

so, if I have the sequencing valve triggered by the draining action of the siphons themselves and not by a timer, would I still have a recipe for disaster?

TCLynx said:

The 1:1 ratio is most likely taking about equal grow bed and fish tank volumes.  That is NOT the ideal ratio, it is simply an easy ratio for a simple system.  Basically you can't flood much more than that without causing your fish tank volume to drop too much.

A 2:1 ratio that is twice as much media filled grow bed as fish tank is actually far better.  That gives you as much filtration as needed to just about max out your fish to what is possible without having to inject pure oxygen but a 2:1 ratio does require that you have a sump tank or some other means to mitigate water level fluctuation.

DO NOT confuse the 1:1 ratio with pounds of fish or gallons of water.  There is no one recommending that you put 1 pound of fish into 1 gallon of water.  I have heard people say they stock one fish per gallon but they ARE NOT growing those fish out to 1 pound each.

I like to stock one fish per 10 gallons of fish tank volume and have at least 20 gallons of grow bed per fish.

You do not need huge numbers of fish to grow your veggies.  Remember that the UVI model is based on aquaculture where they raise lots of fish.  The UVI model removes most of the solids from the system daily and washes their net filters once or twice a week.

Yes, carnivorous fish eat higher protein feed and therefore you get more nitrates and need more filtration and more plants and this is often the case with trout since they are cool water fish and therefore the bacteria isn't as efficient at cooler temperatures so you need a bit more filtration anyway.

As to the idea of using 4 grow beds with siphons and the indexing valve.  DO NOT USE SIPHONS WITH INDEXING VALVES!  Indexing valves are meant to work with stand pipe with hole drains like for timed flood and drain.  Using siphons with an indexing valve is a recipe for disaster.

[Vlad Jovanovic]

William you really DO NOT want to use siphons with an indexing valve. You really want to listen to TC...there's a reason she spelled it out it big letters...Also, the indexing valve isn't ..."triggered by the draining action of the siphons..." ...it's triggered by the stopping (for about 30 secs to a minute of flow to the inlet side of the valve, then starting it again. There is absolutely nothing useful to be gained by using siphons in conjunction with an indexing valve. And again, like TC says, could only create headaches and disasters...

[Vlad Jovanovic]

Leo White Bear said:

Murrey Hallum uses a single IBC tote as a fish tank and four 12" deep grow beds made from cut down IBC totes in his CHOP-II system with great success.  The 1 to 1 ratio is actually 1-pound of fish per 1-gallon of water soooo depending on how big your fish are or their weight per fish you could actually have a very large concentration of fish per gallon of water.  (minnows as to table size fish).  So depending on the size of your fish, remember one pound of fish per one gallon of water as per your 1 to 1 ratio. 

Leo, I hope you can understand why I thought you saying 1lb of fish per 1 gallon of water :)

 

[TCLynx]

Yes exactly, if any little thing gets out of whack you can have beds getting filled but not draining.  If a leaf gets over your pump intake and slows the water flow making the pump no longer strong enough to engage the valve fully, you might wind up with water flowing to all the beds and if you have siphons in, the beds won't be draining.  If you have stand pipes in the beds are draining as they are filling and while you might wind up with a low water level in your fish tank, when the pump turns off there is a chance the leaf will shift away from the pump and the next time the pump comes on it will engage the valve properly and in the mean time the water is draining out of all the beds since there are holes in the bottoms of the stand pipes to let that happen.

In general, I see no reason to use timers and siphons in the same system.  Siphons are only for use in systems where you have the water constantly flowing to the beds but you still want to flood and drain.

To have a siphon some how trigger electronics to stop a pump means you need to put sensors at the drain from each of your grow beds and have wires running to a circuit board that you will have to program yourself to turn the pump on/off.  This is something I know people have done before but it is definitely a DIY robotics time project and the sensors can fail, the electronics can fail, it is not a turnkey box idea and you have to be responisible for it yourself since no one is making a commercially supported device for this application.

William J Silverthorn said:

really? well thanks for the warning.

I'm trying to guess what could go wrong.

I suppose that the timer could switch to another grow bed before the siphon has triggered, resulting in a flooded growbed that does not drain, and possibly removing too much water from the fish tank while also causing root rot by leaving the plants submerged for too long... altogether a pretty bad day.

so, if I have the sequencing valve triggered by the draining action of the siphons themselves and not by a timer, would I still have a recipe for disaster?

[Jim Fisk]

William,

Stop over thinking and start building: a basic flood and drain system with reliable "Affnan style" bell siphons and get that working like a pro BEFORE you attempt to reinvent the wheel. Save the rocket science for after you have a clue and that only comes with experience (at least 1 year in). Having said that it certainly has been fun following this thread. Build that 4 gb and 1 ft system and start the real learning. Do not mix methods until you understand them. KISS. Harsh, I know but I have the same tendencies and have to fight the urges constantly. It can be a curse.

@ Leo, I posted a question on the Trout group but have heard nothing. Do you have any info on just how much earth worms to feed trout and is there any truth to a local rumor that too much worms can negatively effect flavor. My wife was told that by another customer buying trout fingerlings at our local trout farm. I too would like to get off the commercial feeds as much as possible and go on farm sustainable feeds. Worms are so plentiful around here they are almost out of control and the Trout are ravenous for them. Off topic I know but Leo did bring it up

[TCLynx]

Worms are too fatty to be the primary feed source for most any fish.  Now if you are into cooking up your own fish feeds, you could render the excess fat out from the worms and use the worm meal as a protein source for your fish but I'm not sure how your "cook" feels about use using the kitchen to render worm fat and dry the meal.  (same goes for BSF larva.)

I know that some research has been done on replacing the fish meal in commercial fish feeds with worm meal as the protein source but again, that is rendering out the fat.  Some worms as a tasty treat to your fish is fine but without extra processing you really probably shouldn't be replacing too much of their diet with worms.

[Jim Fisk]

Thanx TC, I do rely on your experience as always. Yeah I might have to do that in the outside kitchen although Lynne is quite a trooper in general. Any notion about the flavor problem? and is it the fat in your opinion that is the problem. If I render them and just use the protein will that aspect go away with the fat? All the feed I have found around here is for pond raising so I am looking to fill in the holes in the pond feed as I am assured it is not a complete food source.

[TCLynx]

I don't really know about the flavor issue.

If you have any feed stores that are purina dealers (except tractor supply) you can probably ask them to order in a bag of your desired aquamax feed on their next truck load so you can get a complete dense culture feed.  I know this doesn't get you away from the commercial feed or the gmo corn and soy and who knows where their fishmeal comes from....... But it is a complete feed.  If you google aquamax you can get a listing of purina dealers in your area and call them up to check on prices and their odering schedule (what day you would have to ask them to get it in order for it to be on the next truck delivery etc.)

Now if you are getting really into formulating your own fish feed, you can order a vitamin/mineral admixture from Aquatic eco systems to mix with your own ingredients but that is assuming you are making your own pellets or some other form of blended feed.