Tank Ratio enhancement through carnivorous fish

[William J Silverthorn]

I'm trying to understand this concept thoroughly before designing my first Aquaponic system. I'm finding plenty of advice to say "stick to the recommended ratios" or else bad things will happen...

so if you have too many fish and not enough media space or growbed or biofilter to take care of the waste, then the fish poison themselves and die... I get that part and I dont intend to stress my fish out.

I'm wondering about the alternative deviation with too much growspace and not enough fish, would not harm the fish at all, but instead result in possibly slower growing conditions for the plants who dont have enough Nitrates to keep up with optimized growing speeds.

I was thinking of using a single IBC tote fishtank combined with 4 growbeds with autosiphons and a single continuous pump through a sequencing valve into those 4 growbeds. my first concern was the obvious straying from recommended 1 to 1 ratio, however I wonder if using higher protein feed with carnivorous breeds would provide an elevated output of more potent fertilizer that could fuel the needs of extra growbeds?

I have not found a great deal of warning in this area, since most immediate danger lies with the fish and not with the plants... so... has anyone experienced this first hand or should I experiment with it myself?

[Robert Rowe]

William

I only speak for myself, but if you have to custom feed your plants, why not stick with Hydroponics.

I approached aquaponics as a way to feed or supplement on a sustainable basis. I hate that word (sustainable) but it says what I mean.

[William J Silverthorn]

I suppose mainly for the water conservation and the superior long term performance. although I'm not sure what you mean by custom feeding my plants. If I have to buy hydroponic feed to make this work then I would much rather add another fish tank or reduce the number or size of my growbeds.

Robert Rowe said:

William

I only speak for myself, but if you have to custom feed your plants, why not stick with Hydroponics.

I approached aquaponics as a way to feed or supplement on a sustainable basis. I hate that word (sustainable) but it says what I mean.

[Jim Fisk]

Hey William,

Just some thoughts as there are so many ways of skinning this cat. Another possibility could be to inject a small amount of manure or compost tea after the FT and before the GBs. Or do the same with off the shelf additives like Seaweed or fish waste liquid organic fertilizer. That way you are keeping organic and healthy. You can always add another FT later once all is up and stabilized. You could auto inject it using a pool chlorinator peristaltic type pump. There is also a group on here working on fishless systems using only manure and or compost teas. Check it out here.

[Leo White Bear]

Murrey Hallum uses a single IBC tote as a fish tank and four 12" deep grow beds made from cut down IBC totes in his CHOP-II system with great success.  The 1 to 1 ratio is actually 1-pound of fish per 1-gallon of water soooo depending on how big your fish are or their weight per fish you could actually have a very large concentration of fish per gallon of water.  (minnows as to table size fish).  So depending on the size of your fish, remember one pound of fish per one gallon of water as per your 1 to 1 ratio. 

  I personally am going with the 1 - 5 ratio as I am using a cut down IBC tote with the volume of 150-gallons of water to 1 pound of fish which equals 30 1-pound fish to 150-gallons of water, or 1 fish per 5-gallons of water for 150-gallons water = 30 1-pound fish (5 x 30 = 150)

As to answer your question of the high protien feed raising the nutrients of your system, any feed that is not consumed will decompose and add ammonia to your system.  Any fish that die and are not removed will decompose and add ammonia to your system.  Any algae that decomposes will add ammonia to your system

EVERYTHING THAT DECOMPOSES WILL DEPLEAT YOUR SYSTEM OF OXYGEN.  Be careful NOT to over feed your fish, not a good thing to do.

[William J Silverthorn]

Thanks for the tips everyone.
I will be sure to watch out for anaerobic dead zones stinking up my grow-beds, and I will be careful not to overfeed my fish.

I just wondered if certain breeds of fish that require higher amounts of protein in their diet (carnivorous) would be capable of supporting more plant growth.

in other words... can a FT full of Piranha provide more potent waste than a FT full of Tilapia?

I'm just wondering about the waste comparison specifically from the fish, although I do appreciate those suggestions on how to augment an otherwise dysfunctional grow-bed to tank ratio.

[William J Silverthorn]

Leo thanks for telling me about Murrey Hallum. his design sounds similar to what I'm looking for, but I can't seem to find this person on the forum.

Leo White Bear said:

Murrey Hallum uses a single IBC tote as a fish tank and four 12" deep grow beds made from cut down IBC totes in his CHOP-II system with great success.  The 1 to 1 ratio is actually 1-pound of fish per 1-gallon of water soooo depending on how big your fish are or their weight per fish you could actually have a very large concentration of fish per gallon of water.  (minnows as to table size fish).  So depending on the size of your fish, remember one pound of fish per one gallon of water as per your 1 to 1 ratio. 

  I personally am going with the 1 - 5 ratio as I am using a cut down IBC tote with the volume of 150-gallons of water to 1 pound of fish which equals 30 1-pound fish to 150-gallons of water, or 1 fish per 5-gallons of water for 150-gallons water = 30 1-pound fish (5 x 30 = 150)

As to answer your question of the high protien feed raising the nutrients of your system, any feed that is not consumed will decompose and add ammonia to your system.  Any fish that die and are not removed will decompose and add ammonia to your system.  Any algae that decomposes will add ammonia to your system

EVERYTHING THAT DECOMPOSES WILL DEPLEAT YOUR SYSTEM OF OXYGEN.  Be careful NOT to over feed your fish, not a good thing to do.

[Leo White Bear]

William-

  The link below will bring up a you tube video of Murry Hallum demonstrateing sunlight and nutrients.  Bookmark this video because there are many of them and they are very informational

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1ZpgTwdwPfA

William J Silverthorn said:

Leo thanks for telling me about Murrey Hallum. his design sounds similar to what I'm looking for, but I can't seem to find this person on the forum.

Leo White Bear said:

Murrey Hallum uses a single IBC tote as a fish tank and four 12" deep grow beds made from cut down IBC totes in his CHOP-II system with great success.  The 1 to 1 ratio is actually 1-pound of fish per 1-gallon of water soooo depending on how big your fish are or their weight per fish you could actually have a very large concentration of fish per gallon of water.  (minnows as to table size fish).  So depending on the size of your fish, remember one pound of fish per one gallon of water as per your 1 to 1 ratio. 

  I personally am going with the 1 - 5 ratio as I am using a cut down IBC tote with the volume of 150-gallons of water to 1 pound of fish which equals 30 1-pound fish to 150-gallons of water, or 1 fish per 5-gallons of water for 150-gallons water = 30 1-pound fish (5 x 30 = 150)

As to answer your question of the high protien feed raising the nutrients of your system, any feed that is not consumed will decompose and add ammonia to your system.  Any fish that die and are not removed will decompose and add ammonia to your system.  Any algae that decomposes will add ammonia to your system

EVERYTHING THAT DECOMPOSES WILL DEPLEAT YOUR SYSTEM OF OXYGEN.  Be careful NOT to over feed your fish, not a good thing to do.

[Tom Dumas]

William look in the group section under fish less-systems.  They is some great information in there on what you are looking for. There are several key people on this forum who have a wealth of knowledge and if you follow some of their postings you will see what I mean.  Some of their information is intense and difficult to digest. Also I would check on that fish ration of 1-1.  I think they were referring to Fish tank to grow bed ratio. Tom

[William J Silverthorn]

thanks again everyone for the great tips and advice. I truly appreciate it.

about the original question though, is there a difference in "output performance" that is determined by specific breeds of fish?
in other words... if I have 2 identical systems set up with equal volume comparison, and equal fish weight, except one system used trout and the other system used goldfish...

would one fish species be capable of higher ammonia output than the other species?

[Vlad Jovanovic]

William, try it out.

It does make intuitive sense doesn't it (which still isn't a guarantee that things will play out that way)? Since the breakdown of proteins/amino acids results in nitrogenous waste, it stands to reason that you should get more nitrogen fertilizer out of a higher protein feed...(if this isn't off-set by your carnivorous fish assimilating the extra protein to turn it into muscle mass...not likely...at least not entirely).

..."would one fish species be capable of higher ammonia output than the other species..."?

I bet if you would do a side by side, that that is exactly what you'd find. It's all just input/output folks...

If you find plants still aren't getting enough of what they need (and I believe...at least at first... this will largely depend on what plants you are wanting to grow) there are a bunch of cheap (or entirely free) and safe ways to boost plant essential element levels.

@Robert, I would be interested in hearing what you mean by a "sustainable basis". 

@ Leo...I'm going to go out on a limb here...but I really don't think there's a snowballs chance in Hell that Murray is stocking 1 lb of fish per 1 gallon of water...at least not without some really fancy equipment...O2 injectors and the works...even then, that would be quite a feat... 

[Leo White Bear]

I am sure that Mr Hallum is not using the 1/1 ratio fish to gallon ratio.  I looked back at the post that may have lead you to this conclusion and it seems that by me tying Mr Hallum into this post as the first statement  one may conclude this is what I believe he is doing.

  The UVI have great documented studies on this 1/1 ratio, their conclusions are that this ratio works best at the 1/1 if the water is flooded through many growbeds before returning to the FT.  The main body of solids must be removed if a multiple inlet manifold is not utilized.  If a single inlet is used to the first GB, this GB will soon fill with solids and become anerobic before the water is drained into the consecutive grow beds (over a short period of time).

  You must retain as much of the nutrient as possible to even feed the last of the grow beds as the previous GB will use up the majority of the nutrients.  With multiple GB you need a large ratio of fish to water  or suppliment these nutrients in some way.

Now we come to the oxygen depletion levels.  I will assume this through a flood and drain system.  With the F/D system the GB fill with water to a certian point and then discharge through the (lets say) bell siphon.  This draining cycle brings oxygen into the root zone thus elininating the need to oxyginate the plant root zone.  In the Deep Water Culture, the need to highly oxyginate the water becomes another concern.  The use of an oxygenated "sump tank" inline before the FT is one way of adding this or you can oxyginate the FT.
 
Vlad Jovanovic said:

William, try it out.

It does make intuitive sense doesn't it (which still isn't a guarantee that things will play out that way)? Since the breakdown of proteins/amino acids results in nitrogenous waste, it stands to reason that you should get more nitrogen fertilizer out of a higher protein feed...(if this isn't off-set by your carnivorous fish assimilating the extra protein to turn it into muscle mass...not likely...at least not entirely).

..."would one fish species be capable of higher ammonia output than the other species..."?

I bet if you would do a side by side, that that is exactly what you'd find. It's all just input/output folks...

If you find plants still aren't getting enough of what they need (and I believe...at least at first... this will largely depend on what plants you are wanting to grow) there are a bunch of cheap (or entirely free) and safe ways to boost plant essential element levels.

@Robert, I would be interested in hearing what you mean by a "sustainable basis". 

@ Leo...I'm going to go out on a limb here...but I really don't think there's a snowballs chance in Hell that Murray is stocking 1 lb of fish per 1 gallon of water...at least not without some really fancy equipment...O2 injectors and the works...even then, that would be quite a feat... 

[Vlad Jovanovic]

Could you please link those UVI studies that deal with media filled grow beds. Thanks.

Leo White Bear said:

I am sure that Mr Hallum is not using the 1/1 ratio fish to gallon ratio.  I looked back at the post that may have lead you to this conclusion and it seems that by me tying Mr Hallum into this post as the first statement  one may conclude this is what I believe he is doing.

  The UVI have great documented studies on this 1/1 ratio, their conclusions are that this ratio works best at the 1/1 if the water is flooded through many growbeds before returning to the FT.  The main body of solids must be removed if a multiple inlet manifold is not utilized.  If a single inlet is used to the first GB, this GB will soon fill with solids and become anerobic before the water is drained into the consecutive grow beds (over a short period of time).

  You must retain as much of the nutrient as possible to even feed the last of the grow beds as the previous GB will use up the majority of the nutrients.  With multiple GB you need a large ratio of fish to water  or suppliment these nutrients in some way.

Now we come to the oxygen depletion levels.  I will assume this through a flood and drain system.  With the F/D system the GB fill with water to a certian point and then discharge through the (lets say) bell siphon.  This draining cycle brings oxygen into the root zone thus elininating the need to oxyginate the plant root zone.  In the Deep Water Culture, the need to highly oxyginate the water becomes another concern.  The use of an oxygenated "sump tank" inline before the FT is one way of adding this or you can oxyginate the FT.
 
Vlad Jovanovic said:

William, try it out.

It does make intuitive sense doesn't it (which still isn't a guarantee that things will play out that way)? Since the breakdown of proteins/amino acids results in nitrogenous waste, it stands to reason that you should get more nitrogen fertilizer out of a higher protein feed...(if this isn't off-set by your carnivorous fish assimilating the extra protein to turn it into muscle mass...not likely...at least not entirely).

..."would one fish species be capable of higher ammonia output than the other species..."?

I bet if you would do a side by side, that that is exactly what you'd find. It's all just input/output folks...

If you find plants still aren't getting enough of what they need (and I believe...at least at first... this will largely depend on what plants you are wanting to grow) there are a bunch of cheap (or entirely free) and safe ways to boost plant essential element levels.

@Robert, I would be interested in hearing what you mean by a "sustainable basis". 

@ Leo...I'm going to go out on a limb here...but I really don't think there's a snowballs chance in Hell that Murray is stocking 1 lb of fish per 1 gallon of water...at least not without some really fancy equipment...O2 injectors and the works...even then, that would be quite a feat...