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When to add plants
I am at the very beginning of a fish less cycle. My water is at PH 8.3. I've added ammonia for two days now and today I added bacteria. I can't get my PH to go down despite adding a whole bottle of PH Down over the last two days. The city water comes out of the tap at 8.3 PH. I'm wondering if I can add my plants yet or is the PH to high?
Thanks,
Dan
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jeffrey Ihara on
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Sounds familiar. I started on St. Patrick's Day, and my pH has been up above 8 the whole time since. I've been adding sulfuric acid (main ingredient of some pH down products), and I think the main reason I haven't seen much drop is that these acid additions are neutralized by the ammonium hydroxide (household ammonia) that I have been adding.
As far as plants go, I did put plants in immediately--some herbs, some pepper seedlings (extras that I had started), a six-pack of radicchio, and various seeds (lettuce, brassicas, chicories). So far none of the plants have died, but apart from the sprouts nothing has grown either. I think it's because of high pH-nute lockout. The sprouting brassicas seem to be doing the best.
So in answer to your question, I'd say yes it's safe to plant, but don't count on explosive growth until you're further along in the cycling.
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Permalink Reply by Dan Lieder on
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Thanks for the feed back Jeffrey!
Jeffrey Ihara said:Sounds familiar. I started on St. Patrick's Day, and my pH has been up above 8 the whole time since. I've been adding sulfuric acid (main ingredient of some pH down products), and I think the main reason I haven't seen much drop is that these acid additions are neutralized by the ammonium hydroxide (household ammonia) that I have been adding.
As far as plants go, I did put plants in immediately--some herbs, some pepper seedlings (extras that I had started), a six-pack of radicchio, and various seeds (lettuce, brassicas, chicories). So far none of the plants have died, but apart from the sprouts nothing has grown either. I think it's because of high pH-nute lockout. The sprouting brassicas seem to be doing the best.
So in answer to your question, I'd say yes it's safe to plant, but don't count on explosive growth until you're further along in the cycling.
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Permalink Reply by Vlad Jovanovic on
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pH isn't going to be that big of a deal (except for iron...which you can add in chelated form). What is going to be a big limiter on plant growth early on, or while cycling, is the fact that out of the 13 elements essential for plant growth that are needed, most folks have a LOT of just one (nitrogen) and not much of any of the other 12.
These were all grown at a pH above 8...
Here they are a bit later...
Swiss chard also did fine, as did the cilantro, romaine, the various Chinese brassicas...(any flowering/fruiting plants might not have fared so well)...
Again, I believe it's not so much pH that is the cause of people's plant woes while cycling, but the lack of essential elements in solution. (That, and the fact that many people want to un-realistically start off with things like tomato plants, peppers, cucumbers etc...in their new systems :)
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Vlad, based on what my peppers are telling me, there's definitely some basis to high pH being a problem--I see this in my soil garden as well. It's not a simple problem--temperature seems to be another important factor, because high pH with warm temps is not as restrictive as cooler temps and high pH (whereas low pH seems to allow a little better growth at the lower temps). At the seedling stage, the pepper's growth is purely vegetative, so its draw on micronutrients shouldn't be dramatically different from leaf crops, right? I have a feeling that peppers in particular have less tolerance for high pH than other crops.
But yeah, my brassicas (mustard, collard, and arugula) and chicories (lettuce, arugula) are way happier than the peppers with my current conditions (high pH, low temps), and this is probably a reflection of their tolerance of/preference for cooler weather.
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Wow, this is really disappointing. In all of my research I never read anything about not starting with any fruiting plants. I just spent a boat load of money on so many fruiting plants.
Vlad Jovanovic said:pH isn't going to be that big of a deal (except for iron...which you can add in chelated form). What is going to be a big limiter on plant growth early on, or while cycling, is the fact that out of the 13 elements essential for plant growth that are needed, most folks have a LOT of just one (nitrogen) and not much of any of the other 12.
These were all grown at a pH above 8...
Again, I believe it's not so much pH that is the cause of people's plant woes while cycling, but the lack of essential elements in solution. (That, and the fact that many people want to un-realistically start off with things like tomato plants, peppers, cucumbers etc...in their new systems
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Agreed :) I don't think that I would have gotten away with that with peppers...even the low-ish nute spicy varieties...My temps really suck too, not exactly pepper territory :) I'm a bit of a hot pepper freak and grow a lot of them...in the soil, in mineral hydro, in organic hydro, worm tea and humonia hydro...they don't require a 'high level of inputs'...well more than lettuce and chard and such, but not as much as the 'bell pepper' varieties, or tomatoes, or cukes. They're fun to and not too difficult to grow, and sure are tasty
I had some pretty good results last year with a neat 'dual root-zone' method that I'll be using in the AP GH for some cukes and toms http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/group/fish-less-systems/for...@ Dan, no one said that you can't start off with fruiting/flowering plants per say...just to mean that...your inputs cannot be less than your outputs (plant needs).
Your inputs would be fish feed, any buffers you add, any salts you added for fish health (mitigating nitrite poisoning etc...) the quality of your fish feed, the type of buffers you are using, the kind of chloride salt(s) [dehydrated sea-water and such...for mitigating nitrite poisoning and adding some secondary and trace elements at the same time, etc...]...any MaxiCrop, or whatever, you add...all of those are inputs whether complex organic substances, or simple compounds like salt, all that eventually make their way to their most basic ionic form to becoming soluble plant food..and there must bee enough of them to meet your plants particular needs. That's all.
And Dan, surely you jest..? You've never heard/read that AP is a "slow to start" system best suited for lettuce and leafy greens for the first year or so?
Jeffrey Ihara said:Vlad, based on what my peppers are telling me, there's definitely some basis to high pH being a problem--I see this in my soil garden as well. It's not a simple problem--temperature seems to be another important factor, because high pH with warm temps is not as restrictive as cooler temps and high pH (whereas low pH seems to allow a little better growth at the lower temps). At the seedling stage, the pepper's growth is purely vegetative, so its draw on micronutrients shouldn't be dramatically different from leaf crops, right? I have a feeling that peppers in particular have less tolerance for high pH than other crops.
But yeah, my brassicas (mustard, collard, and arugula) and chicories (lettuce, arugula) are way happier than the peppers with my current conditions (high pH, low temps), and this is probably a reflection of their tolerance of/preference for cooler weather.
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Mmmm. Hot peppers. Mine are in the ground, as are the tomatoes.
I had some extra starts and threw them into the growbed just 'cause they were there. Right now the AP peppers' only advantage is that they're relatively safe from bunnies and gophers!
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Dan,
How are things shaping up? My cycling seems to be done--low nitrites and ammonia, and I'm going to look for fish tomorrow. As for pH, I can't budge it below 8.0. I have been dosing with acid (sulfuric and hydrochloric) every day, but it's just not moving. Maybe there's some limestone in my gravel (though I did the vinegar test before buying it). I guess I'll stick with leaf crops that don't mind the high pH for this year.
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Jeffrey, it may not be your media...Until most of the kH (carbonate hardness) gets "used up" your not going to see a drop in pH...You may see a drop right after you add the acid, but within 4 to 5 hours it bounces right back up...eventually it'll come down as your nitrifiers 'use' it up...or you pour in enough acid (not advisable at this stage)...
Most of the kH in your water comes from calcium bicarbonate...which the bacteria need right now anyways (they need an inorganic carbon food source to oxidize ammonia into nitrite/nitrate and bicarbonates provide a convenient source). Also, bicarbonate alkalinity neutralizes the acidic by-products of bacterial respiration...Otherwise they'd wallow and die in their own 'shit' so to speak...
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Thanks, Vlad. Your success with the higher pH is an encouragement. I'll cool it with the acid doses unless I see it poking up any higher than 8.0. In the meantime, I'm giving up on the hot pepper seedlings I put into the bed. They are all but overtaken by the leaf crops.
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If you go to the aquarium shop and buy a kH test kit (if you do, get the 'drops' and not the crappy paper strips) it would go a ways toward being able to see how fast your nitrifiers are 'using' it up...and hence knowing when your pH will drop. Also, it might be really good to know the kH value of your top-up water...I'm betting that it's quite high, so every time you top up you are in effect buffering up (adding a source of alkalinity) to your system. pH and kH are super inter-related...
If you don't want to give up on the peppers, you can try a cheapo 'dual-root zone' method...http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/group/fish-less-systems/for...
I'm using this method for heavy Mg and K loving cucumbers currently...the bottom of the buckets and the bottom third of the 4 sides of the buckets have a bunch of 5mm holes drilled throughout...the rest is as described in the thread I linked. I think it's a great way to grow some heavy feeders in a new system without having to "contaminate" the AP water with 'excess' nutrients.
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Hey Vlad,
Beautiful Plants! Perhaps you can answer a few questions for me. I'm 14 days into fish-less cycling. Here are my stats as of today. 630 gallon system.
- PH 8.3
- Ammonia .50ppm ( added two teaspoon powdered ammonia 3 days ago brought it up to 3ppm the next day)
- Nitirites above 5ppm (First appeared and been rising since 4/10/13)
- Nitrates 30ppm (First appeared and been rising since 4/11/13)
- Temp 67.8
How long do I keep feeding the system with ammonia?
When can I add fish and how many? ( 330 gal FT, 300 gal ST)
Here is a pic of my lettuce after only 10 days in the system. They were about half this size when I bought them. I fed the system about 2 quarts of GrowMore liquid seaweed extract on 4/4/13.
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