System startup

[Timothy P. Kelly]

Hi All,

I'm trying to get my system through startup and I'm at a loss as to what is happening with the water chemisty.The overall water volume is about 15 gallons and I've introduced just under 30 feeder goldfish in stages. I've been testing regularly with an API Master Kit and gotten pH results are high 7.8, with a just a little ammonia (.25). I've seen nothing in the way of intermediate products (nitrites), but have picked up 5.0 ppm for nitrates. I had previously "seeded" the tank with water taken for the family goldfish tank, to speed things up.

Do I need more time or more fish to get this thing up to a state where I can start growing stuff?

 

Thanks.

[RupertofOZ]

Brown blood disease.. caused by nitrites... would be reflected by the dull brownish colour of the gills... it's essentially the same as the bends in humans...

The nitrites upset the blood osmosis... inhibit the haemoglobin in the blood from taking in oxygen... and leading to the blood concentrating nitrogen...

[TCLynx]

Hum, I had actually tended to think of nitrite poisoning as being more akin to carbon monoxide in humans.  As in because the hemoglobin is linking with nitrite, it is not able to link with oxygen and therefore the fish dies of oxygen deprivation.

Then again, I'm definitely a "laymen" when it comes to specific aquaculture stuff, Rupert is the one who has gone to school for it.

As to the aeration.  In many cases the return form the grow beds might be enough aeration for a system but that is by no means a guarantee.  And I don't know how well the pump fountain head is aerating the water nor do I know how warm the water is.  Warm water holds less oxygen and therefore it can be consumed far faster leaving the fish to gasp and suffer.  Small tanks also warm up much faster therefore I would probably recommend doing what you can to keep it cool in the summer and adding some extra aeration.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

TC,

Just got back from a better pet store, where I had a water sample fully tested. Their numbers jive with mine, except that the nitrate level they got was 5ppm.

Down to two fish. Lost the fantails I introduced earlier. The bottom line is that I missed the obvious: that the brown blood disease an introduced issue, not one connected with nitrite levels.

As soon as I can find a clean container, I'll take my survivors out of the tank and put them in fresh, dechlorinated water and see what happens. Then I'll do a complete water change and start over, using fish food to provide the ammonia to sustain the biofilter.

Your thoughts?
 
TCLynx said:

Hum, I had actually tended to think of nitrite poisoning as being more akin to carbon monoxide in humans.  As in because the hemoglobin is linking with nitrite, it is not able to link with oxygen and therefore the fish dies of oxygen deprivation.

Then again, I'm definitely a "laymen" when it comes to specific aquaculture stuff, Rupert is the one who has gone to school for it.

As to the aeration.  In many cases the return form the grow beds might be enough aeration for a system but that is by no means a guarantee.  And I don't know how well the pump fountain head is aerating the water nor do I know how warm the water is.  Warm water holds less oxygen and therefore it can be consumed far faster leaving the fish to gasp and suffer.  Small tanks also warm up much faster therefore I would probably recommend doing what you can to keep it cool in the summer and adding some extra aeration.

[TCLynx]

So what introduced the brown blood disease?  Are you saying that the fish had it before you got them?  In that case, why would you subject your fish to moving them into "new" water (that tends to be harsh on fish since it usually involves all sorts of different water chemistry and temperature which tends to be hard on them and handling is traumatic too) just to dump your system and start over.  If the fish came to you sick, then the extra handling is not going to "rescue" them, likely only speed their demise. 

OR Do you think there was some sort of contamination in your system water like pesticides, herbicides or other poisons or soap or detergent introduced to your system?  That would be the only reason I would dump and start all over.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

TC,

The word a get is that "feeder" goldfish are not treated for disease prior to being put out for sale, since they are considered expendible, as opposed to better quality fish. Also, I was told today that Brown Blood Disease is VERY common among goldfish.

I'll have to start over. I assume that new water and regular ammonia dosing is in order, per fishless cycling procedures?
 
TCLynx said:

So what introduced the brown blood disease?  Are you saying that the fish had it before you got them?  In that case, why would you subject your fish to moving them into "new" water (that tends to be harsh on fish since it usually involves all sorts of different water chemistry and temperature which tends to be hard on them and handling is traumatic too) just to dump your system and start over.  If the fish came to you sick, then the extra handling is not going to "rescue" them, likely only speed their demise. 

OR Do you think there was some sort of contamination in your system water like pesticides, herbicides or other poisons or soap or detergent introduced to your system?  That would be the only reason I would dump and start all over.

[TCLynx]

Timothy,

      Even if your goldfish all died of brown blood disease, why do you think that means you have to start all over?  It isn't your system water that gave them the disease and even if it was because of a nitrite spike in your water in the past, it's passed now.  Brown blood disease isn't a microbe that will reinfect new fish you introduce.  So instead of sterilizing and starting all over fishless cycling, I would probably say just keep your bio-filter alive by using ammonia and/or some other ammonia source (only if all the fish are gone or removed from the system) kinda like you would for fishless cycling but without having to totally start all over from scratch by dumping and sterilizing and starting with "new" water.

The only reason to dump and start all over from scratch is if there is something toxic in your system (contamination by chemicals like soap, detergent, herbicides or pesticides) or if some communicable fish disease is in the system that won't go away simply by some time without fish.

But if you really want to just dump all your water and start over from scratch, I suppose that is up to you.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

I'll go with fish removal and get back to you later.

Tim
 
TCLynx said:

Timothy,

      Even if your goldfish all died of brown blood disease, why do you think that means you have to start all over?  It isn't your system water that gave them the disease and even if it was because of a nitrite spike in your water in the past, it's passed now.  Brown blood disease isn't a microbe that will reinfect new fish you introduce.  So instead of sterilizing and starting all over fishless cycling, I would probably say just keep your bio-filter alive by using ammonia and/or some other ammonia source (only if all the fish are gone or removed from the system) kinda like you would for fishless cycling but without having to totally start all over from scratch by dumping and sterilizing and starting with "new" water.

The only reason to dump and start all over from scratch is if there is something toxic in your system (contamination by chemicals like soap, detergent, herbicides or pesticides) or if some communicable fish disease is in the system that won't go away simply by some time without fish.

But if you really want to just dump all your water and start over from scratch, I suppose that is up to you.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

TC,

The fish are out in a temprary container. I did some checking and found a YAHOO answer that said that septicemia is a bacterial issue:

"It's a bacterial infection called hemorrhagic septicemia.
It's common to goldfish AND IT IS DEADLY IF NOT TREATED!!!!

Your fish probably got it from being in poor water.  They need lots of room, good filtration and airation, and regular water changes.  Poor water stresses them out and leaves fish open to bacterial attacks."

At any rate, I can't use Maracyn to treat the water since food plants are involved. I'll watch the fish and see what happens with them, then re-introduce them at a later date. 
 
TCLynx said:

Timothy,

      Even if your goldfish all died of brown blood disease, why do you think that means you have to start all over?  It isn't your system water that gave them the disease and even if it was because of a nitrite spike in your water in the past, it's passed now.  Brown blood disease isn't a microbe that will reinfect new fish you introduce.  So instead of sterilizing and starting all over fishless cycling, I would probably say just keep your bio-filter alive by using ammonia and/or some other ammonia source (only if all the fish are gone or removed from the system) kinda like you would for fishless cycling but without having to totally start all over from scratch by dumping and sterilizing and starting with "new" water.

The only reason to dump and start all over from scratch is if there is something toxic in your system (contamination by chemicals like soap, detergent, herbicides or pesticides) or if some communicable fish disease is in the system that won't go away simply by some time without fish.

But if you really want to just dump all your water and start over from scratch, I suppose that is up to you.

[TCLynx]

Before you said it was brown blood disease which is another term for Nitrite poisoning.  Fish that have been stressed by Nitrite poisoning are more suseptable to viral and bacterial infections but moving them to a temporary container won't help their chances for survival.

I'm not sure where this hemorrhagic septicemia comes into the picture since you were saying brown blood disease before.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

The piece I quoted came up as a search result under brown blood disease. The fantails I had showed classic symptoms, red around the head and the base of the fins. The two I took out yesterday are still lively and eating well. I was amazed at the amount of waste they generated overnight. I'll be less worried about the number of fish going forward. I am, however, considering cutting back on the plants. Despite teh 1:1 ratio I designed the system around, I just don't think I can generate enough fertilizer to maintain more than a few.
 
TCLynx said:

Before you said it was brown blood disease which is another term for Nitrite poisoning.  Fish that have been stressed by Nitrite poisoning are more suseptable to viral and bacterial infections but moving them to a temporary container won't help their chances for survival.

I'm not sure where this hemorrhagic septicemia comes into the picture since you were saying brown blood disease before.

[TCLynx]

Goldfish may be prone to catching hemorrhagic septicemia after they have been stressed by Nitrite poisoning.  Kinda the same way people who are stressed by say an allergy or smoke inhalation may be more prone to catch a cold or get pneumonia.  That still doesn't make brown blood disease the same as hemorrhagic septicemia.

So are you feeding the goldfish medicated feed and doing lots of water changes for them in the separate container to cure them of hemorrhagic septicemia?

[Timothy P. Kelly]

No. Not at this point. I'm otherwise occupied at the moment.

Thanks for sticking with this.
 
TCLynx said:

Goldfish may be prone to catching hemorrhagic septicemia after they have been stressed by Nitrite poisoning.  Kinda the same way people who are stressed by say an allergy or smoke inhalation may be more prone to catch a cold or get pneumonia.  That still doesn't make brown blood disease the same as hemorrhagic septicemia.

So are you feeding the goldfish medicated feed and doing lots of water changes for them in the separate container to cure them of hemorrhagic septicemia?