Loop Siphon

[Adam Shivers]

How do I regulate my loop siphon?  Anyone know tips, tricks, formulas, ratios, anything?

[Adam Shivers]

Thank you. unfortunately I work on someone's computer that I am unable to download anything. I was trying to avoid bell siphons but have been wondering if I should try. they look simple but I cant even figure out how to plum what I have already it has leaked and fallen apart and continues to leak.

Harold Sukhbir said:

Hi Adam,

Half the joy in AP comes from struggling and finally getting something to work, i know it's not a good feeling while you struggle but the satisfaction that comes when we persist and come through the other side.....priceless! I really don't want to add to your frustration or confusion but i had found this video of a bell siphon made so quickly and easily it took me about 30 minutes to build( If i have to do it now with all the materials I'll do it in 5 mins ) and it worked right off, it handles a wide range of flow rates and it's been working for 5 months without any maintenance.

 



[Adam Shivers]

at this point talking to an aquaculturist I know I am thinking I may have to rehash more than I thought. the media may be the least of my worries. I just can't help getting a lump in my throught so to speak. I want to finish something for a change. I thought I was starting small and simple so that I could do something that would work. I must just be at a low because I've seen people quit on me along the way (those that were once excited). I'll just keep it up. maybe a whole new approach would work better.

TCLynx said:

Adam, don't feel bad that you are struggling with the siphons.  Many people struggle with them.  For some people they just work simple and other situations they cause all sorts of troubles for people.

 

My first few large grow beds that I hooked up loop siphons on worked rather well, it was just a matter of me adjusting the inflow to the beds until I found the balance.  It can be a very fine line between the proper inflow to the bed and the siphon not starting to working to not stopping.  This is the reason many people have thrown up their hands and simply switched to timed flood and drain.

 

Now I might be able to find some calculations that some one did for bell siphons years ago but I doubt that will help much since you would need to know the exact flow rate you are getting into your grow bed and you are trying to use loops.  Now there might be some calculations some where for loops but they will probably be a bit approximate since flexible tubing tends to squish a bit and the different barb fittings might not all be exactly the same bore inside.

 

Now I've seen where my loop siphons can take a really long time to get started so if you can resist the urge to tap them while waiting to see if they will start on their own, it could take a while.  I've also seen where they can take a really long time to finally get a gulp of air too.  I spent hours hanging out by the system to see if I had things balanced right.

 

You keep coming back to the point of not wanting to have to disturb the media.  I see in your current set up the grill for the siphon is buried.  If roots start growing into the drain, you will have to dig into your media the way things are now and it might be difficult for you even to tell if there is a root problem once the algae gets growing.  Most people make a gravel guard that goes to the surface of the bed so they can look down it to check and remove roots and make sure the drain is still flowing.  Yes it will take up a little of your surface space from your bed but it will save you the trouble of digging up the media to check and clean things and might also allow you to switch to a different type of siphon if you choose.  Let me see if I can link some pictures to help you out.

http://backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=255778#p255778

here are some pictures in this thread over on BYAP of some of my new gravel guards in my three newest beds.  Now I know my beds are huge compared to yours but if you can get some plastic mesh and make a guard out of it for the corner of your grow bed, it could help you out I think.

[RupertofOZ]

Adam Shivers said:

at this point talking to an aquaculturist I know I am thinking I may have to rehash more than I thought. the media may be the least of my worries. I just can't help getting a lump in my throught so to speak. I want to finish something for a change. I thought I was starting small and simple so that I could do something that would work. I must just be at a low because I've seen people quit on me along the way (those that were once excited). I'll just keep it up. maybe a whole new approach would work better.

Adam, don't get disheartened or quit on your system...

IMO your problem, and the solution is simple...

Currently you have the loop siphon outlet positioned, albeit screened, under the media and directly under the water inlet...

I believe that this leads to the siphon never breaking properly as the media prevents the bin from draining down to a level whereby air can enter the loop siphon and displace the water... hence breaking the siphon...

This is exacerbated by the fact that the inflow is positioned immediately above...

Here's what I'd do.... and I know you don't really want to "disturb the media"... but...

Clear the media away from the siphon outlet.... find a sturdy square/rectangular plastic bottle... or cut a piece of PVC pipe to shape... and place it in the corner of the bin...

It doesn't have to be a completely tight fit... it's just to keep the media from falling/filling in above the siphon inlet....

Indeed, if it is a very tight fit on the bottom.... then drill a few holes to allow the water to rise inside the guard....

I think you'll find the bin... and inside the media guard... will fill to the level of the loop, initating the siphon.... and then will drain the bin completely... allowing the siphon to break...

If it doesn't ... add a little riser, or tee to the inlet.... so that the water level drops below it, breaking the siphon... it wont matter if a bit of water remains in the bin...

If the bin floods higher than the loop level... add a ball valve to the water inlet... and adjust the flow back until the siphon works properly...

Loop siphons are almost infaillable... and extremely relaible IMO... although not as well suited to larger containers where a bell siphon might be better applied...

Here's a pic of my media gaurd on my loop siphoned barrel system...

[Kobus Jooste]

I understand how you feel and there are many people on this board that has gone through the same process - being put down by family or government officials when you try to do something you believe in, and which should result in the improvement of people's lives.  If I could fly over to where you are I would come and build you a siphon, but I can only try and explain and if you cannot download step by step guides, even that becomes difficult.  If I may be so forward as to offer you advice, take a few steps back, acknowledge that the current siphon is not that great, and figure out what to do about it when you are in the mood to struglle with something.  I forced myself to quit aquaponics for three months and it helped me make up my mind that I want to do it, and that I will have to be calm and find the ways to fix what is not working, which in my case is funding for projects.  If you decide not to toss the whole idea out the door, there are many other ways to flood and drain a grow bed left for you to try.

Adam Shivers said:

at this point talking to an aquaculturist I know I am thinking I may have to rehash more than I thought. the media may be the least of my worries. I just can't help getting a lump in my throught so to speak. I want to finish something for a change. I thought I was starting small and simple so that I could do something that would work. I must just be at a low because I've seen people quit on me along the way (those that were once excited). I'll just keep it up. maybe a whole new approach would work better.

[Adam Shivers]

Thank you for your patience. I am feeling better about this already. I just need to get someone here that knows how to install fittings that he uses for aquaculture. They won't leak and while it's torn up I plan to implement your advice.

RupertofOZ said:

Adam Shivers said:

at this point talking to an aquaculturist I know I am thinking I may have to rehash more than I thought. the media may be the least of my worries. I just can't help getting a lump in my throught so to speak. I want to finish something for a change. I thought I was starting small and simple so that I could do something that would work. I must just be at a low because I've seen people quit on me along the way (those that were once excited). I'll just keep it up. maybe a whole new approach would work better.

Adam, don't get disheartened or quit on your system...

IMO your problem, and the solution is simple...

Currently you have the loop siphon outlet positioned, albeit screened, under the media and directly under the water inlet...

I believe that this leads to the siphon never breaking properly as the media prevents the bin from draining down to a level whereby air can enter the loop siphon and displace the water... hence breaking the siphon...

This is exacerbated by the fact that the inflow is positioned immediately above...

Here's what I'd do.... and I know you don't really want to "disturb the media"... but...

Clear the media away from the siphon outlet.... find a sturdy square/rectangular plastic bottle... or cut a piece of PVC pipe to shape... and place it in the corner of the bin...

It doesn't have to be a completely tight fit... it's just to keep the media from falling/filling in above the siphon inlet....

Indeed, if it is a very tight fit on the bottom.... then drill a few holes to allow the water to rise inside the guard....

I think you'll find the bin... and inside the media guard... will fill to the level of the loop, initating the siphon.... and then will drain the bin completely... allowing the siphon to break...

If it doesn't ... add a little riser, or tee to the inlet.... so that the water level drops below it, breaking the siphon... it wont matter if a bit of water remains in the bin...

If the bin floods higher than the loop level... add a ball valve to the water inlet... and adjust the flow back until the siphon works properly...

Loop siphons are almost infaillable... and extremely relaible IMO... although not as well suited to larger containers where a bell siphon might be better applied...

Here's a pic of my media gaurd on my loop siphoned barrel system...

[Adam Shivers]

Thank you. I will try to not get discouraged. And I understand the sabbatical Idea. I feel this is so important that it consumes my thoughts sometimes.
Kobus Jooste said:

I understand how you feel and there are many people on this board that has gone through the same process - being put down by family or government officials when you try to do something you believe in, and which should result in the improvement of people's lives.  If I could fly over to where you are I would come and build you a siphon, but I can only try and explain and if you cannot download step by step guides, even that becomes difficult.  If I may be so forward as to offer you advice, take a few steps back, acknowledge that the current siphon is not that great, and figure out what to do about it when you are in the mood to struglle with something.  I forced myself to quit aquaponics for three months and it helped me make up my mind that I want to do it, and that I will have to be calm and find the ways to fix what is not working, which in my case is funding for projects.  If you decide not to toss the whole idea out the door, there are many other ways to flood and drain a grow bed left for you to try.

Adam Shivers said:

at this point talking to an aquaculturist I know I am thinking I may have to rehash more than I thought. the media may be the least of my worries. I just can't help getting a lump in my throught so to speak. I want to finish something for a change. I thought I was starting small and simple so that I could do something that would work. I must just be at a low because I've seen people quit on me along the way (those that were once excited). I'll just keep it up. maybe a whole new approach would work better.

[TCLynx]

There ya go.  And Rupes ideas about using a bottle or whatever to make your own corner fit gravel guards is a great one.

 

For the fittings.  Bulkhead fittings are often easiest but require the place they are installed be very flat.  Uniseals are better of not perfectly flat installs.  There are ways to do kinda DIY bulkhead fittings but that can be more hit and miss to get them not to leak especially if they get wiggled regularly.

 

Hang in there, good luck

 

(And if you find the siphon just isn't going to work for you, a simple timer might be the way to manage the flood and drain.

[Adam Shivers]

yes -uniseals that's what Jeff (my aquaculturist friend) called them. He has a source and will get them for me at his cost. and many ideas.   I have another pump that he can help me to regulate. He grows coral and whatnot, a very touchy thing compared to what I need to accomoplish. Well see how things go and I will try to put pics on here of other things I try. everyone has been so helpful on here I am glad I joined this site if for no other reason than other people don't think I'm crazy.

TCLynx said:

There ya go.  And Rupes ideas about using a bottle or whatever to make your own corner fit gravel guards is a great one.

 

For the fittings.  Bulkhead fittings are often easiest but require the place they are installed be very flat.  Uniseals are better of not perfectly flat installs.  There are ways to do kinda DIY bulkhead fittings but that can be more hit and miss to get them not to leak especially if they get wiggled regularly.

 

Hang in there, good luck

 

(And if you find the siphon just isn't going to work for you, a simple timer might be the way to manage the flood and drain.

[Kobus Jooste]

Ha! We cannot call you crazy because so are we :)

This site is great for getting helped becuase aquaponics is pretty much in flux and there are so many ways to do things.  There is not really "right" and "wrong", just "that works" or "that doesn't lick it just yet".

Adam Shivers said:

 everyone has been so helpful on here I am glad I joined this site if for no other reason than other people don't think I'm crazy.

[Harold Sukhbir]

That's the idea........ now go get em Adam!

[Adam Shivers]

wow you all have helped me through a lot! I appreciate it all. (as I look back through my discussions)

Do you all know why some people have a sump and others don't? If I already asked this question in another discussion I apologize. I can't remember. thanks again

[Harold Sukhbir]

Hi Adam,

The sump(usually the lowest point in the system) is an extra body of water that can be used during the flood cycle of the GB without fluctuating the levels of water in the FT. In this way you can always maintain your fish/water ratios recommended by the rules of thumb.Sumps also increase the body of water in an AP system lending more "stability" to it.