Thoughts on system design and sustainability.

[Adrian Horsley]

Hi everyone,

I am brand new member and a total AP novice so excuse me if I am repeating things said in the past.

I come from a permaculture background and am fascinated by the AP concept. What intrigues me is how to make the system less energy hungry. Raising fish in relatively small tanks inevitably means copying a large stream or river ecosystem and these systems obviously embody large amounts of energy.

However small ponds can also be full of life and have very little water movement. What they do have is many diverse species of plants growing in them that add oxygen and nutrients. So far I have not seen mention of attempts to duplicate this kind of ecosystem substituting edible plants into the plant mix in AP.

I am also intrigued to know if anyone has tried to raise other amphibious creatures either as a direct food source or as an intermediary food source for say chickens or other species. These could be just insects or perhaps frogs or possibly reptiles. It is an area of knowledge in which I feel very limited. Also it may call for a change in dietary habits and overcoming a few eating concepts. Tadpole soup and newt soufflé anyone?

I would like the idea of using a solar pump to move water to a header tank from the grow beds during the day and then to have it released in periodic rainfall on to the pond bed and another pump that takes the water from the pond to feed the grow beds. Perhaps the pond bed would still be able to grow carp and other harvest-able fish and crustaceans. Of course maintaining equilibrium and continued food supplies during cold and dark winter months without large energy inputs is again a huge challenge, I am thinking rocket stoves and chicken heaters and some supplementary lighting.

One other idea that also crossed my mind was that if one was going to keep fish in large quantities how would it be possible to feed them without resource to commercial fish foods.

Using animal waste and especially human waste as a medium to propagate flies and other insects and of course worms seems to be another way to close a waste product stream and make it a beneficial input, if it can be achieved safely.

Finally I would love to be able to see any systems in action so if there is anyone in the Nottingham, East Midlands area of the UK would love to meet up or just to chat about the development of systems.

Thanks for reading. Adrian

[TCLynx]

Hi Adrian,

    You might want to look up some of the things Carey Ma has been posting as he has some really cool integration going on in some of his ideas.

And I believe Jon Par has posted some about very simple set ups he has done with no power in small pool with water plants and a small number of fish growing quiet well.  These would be low low density systems and might not be appropriate to all climates (If I put a little kiddie pool out in the sun with water plants and a few fish and only a little solar pump, the fish would perish the first night as the plants started using up the dissolved oxygen rather than producing it in the dark, stays too hot here overnight in the summer.)  But If I went a little larger with the pond and gave it a bit of shade and perhaps a little bit of aeration at least overnight, it would work.

Now I am keen on the idea of using some sort of ponics to grow feed for my animals.  I already plan to get a duckweed system going to provide duckweed for my ducks and I think an algae system is in order to since the ducks think string algae is better than spaghetti.  And tadpoles and snails are also great feed for ducks and maybe even chickens too.  I know my chickens love eating little pumpkin seed size tilapia and if one has a breeding operation going with tilapia they may have more fish than they can keep up with so feeding the extras to the chickens before the population kills the water quality might be handy.

Growing feed for fish is a lot more work though and many people are looking at ideas but the important thing to keep in mind that there is NO single lone solution that will work as 100% of the fish diet for a working aquaponics system.  It will require a combination of elements to get a good balanced feed for the fish that will also provide good nutrients for the plants.  Duckweed is good for up to 50% of the tilapia diet but not 100%.  Worms or BSF larva make great feed supplements but they are definitely not good for 100% of any fish feed.

[Adrian Horsley]

Hi,

Many thanks for your comments. Yes I totally agree that it seems a good idea to be diverse in finding solutions. I am very happy to accept lower yields in terms of fish and plants grown if it means my system can be more resilient and less fragile i.e more like a natural system. I feel so lacking in knowledge about temperate aquatic eco- systems that I am not sure quite where to start. In this case it is sometimes easy to grind to a halt so perhaps the way forward might be to first of all to build a greenhouse or a polytunnel and ideally have a cheap and reliable heat source to boost the temperature a bit in the winter. With water ( as much of it as possible) and warmth I should be able to get a good flora and fauna established and also try to introduce food crops as I go along.

I have to say that I am not so serious about raising fish if it means that I can't go off on holiday for a week without having to have a fully trained aquaponist baby sit my system. In time it might be possible to introduce different elements. I have thought about turtles but they seem quite temperamental.

While I love the symentary of the fish waste feeding the grow beds I wonder if it is not easier to feed the grow beds form other sources and allow the fish to thrive in their independent and resilient environment that is self balancing.

This is all late night mind meanderings at the moment when I should really be in bed counting tilapia.

Best wishes Adrian

[TCLynx]

I would caution about turtles and other lizards since they can carry salmonella.

I would use aquaponics to keep the water nice a clean for the fish and if your stocking is very moderate, you can get away with leaving for short holiday and about all you need is a neighbor willing to wander through and make sure the pumps are working and scoop out any dead fish (if that were to happen) and toss them in the compost.  If it's summer perhaps you give the neighbor instructions to the neighbor for feeding the fish a small amount (or even bag up daily portions but be sure they are less than normal for when you are gone.)

[George]

Bugs - cultivating black soldier fly larvae is fairly common.  I pick worms off garden plants and drop them into my fish tank and I dig a few earthworms on occasion and drop them in.  My bluegill really love any kind of insect or worm.  I'd like to expand this so I'm interested in more ways to cultivate insects - not particularly interested in using manure though.

Minnows - that would be easy to do and it's on my list, although I plan to cultivate them in a separate tank and then feed them into my main fish tank periodically. 

Good luck with your plans - I'd like to hear more ideas on the feed aspect of this.

[Carey Ma]

Hi Adrian,

Thanks for the plug TC ;)

Your questions and concept is (in my book) the way to go. I too believe in having systems as natural as possible. Unfortunately, this means rather complicated and large systems. Ponds and converted swimming pools are ideal so it all depends on what you have to work with. Unlike most aquapons, I believe in much more biodiversity to the point of incorporating AP into the whole farm concept. My smallest pond is 1/4 acre times 10 feet deep.

I am a fourth generation American organic farmer based in communist China, working as a Bio-intensive/dynamic, Permaculture based Farmscape Architect & Consultant. Please feel free to read though my psychobabble and ask any questions. I'll try to respond the best I can but even though I come to this site mainly for respite during the production season (March through November) I will do the best I can. My main input in this site is during the winter when I have much more free time. Anyway, I suggest you build and run a smaller "traditional" system to get your feet wet and after a year or so, begin to expand and experiment to find what works best in your area with the resources you have, at your personal moral comfort level. There are also many wonderful and knowledgeable people on this site that can help. Kudos to my friends like TC, Gina, Jon Par, Murray, Vlad, Sahib, Nate, Rupert and of course our fearless leader Sylvia.

Good luck to you & Cheers

[Adrian Horsley]

Thanks for that advice. That is good to know. Will keep you updated on any progress when it happens

TCLynx said:

I would caution about turtles and other lizards since they can carry salmonella.

I would use aquaponics to keep the water nice a clean for the fish and if your stocking is very moderate, you can get away with leaving for short holiday and about all you need is a neighbor willing to wander through and make sure the pumps are working and scoop out any dead fish (if that were to happen) and toss them in the compost.  If it's summer perhaps you give the neighbor instructions to the neighbor for feeding the fish a small amount (or even bag up daily portions but be sure they are less than normal for when you are gone.)

[Adrian Horsley]

George said:

Bugs - cultivating black soldier fly larvae is fairly common.  I pick worms off garden plants and drop them into my fish tank and I dig a few earthworms on occasion and drop them in.  My bluegill really love any kind of insect or worm.  I'd like to expand this so I'm interested in more ways to cultivate insects - not particularly interested in using manure though.

Minnows - that would be easy to do and it's on my list, although I plan to cultivate them in a separate tank and then feed them into my main fish tank periodically. 

Good luck with your plans - I'd like to hear more ideas on the feed aspect of this.

Thanks for your input George.

I have heard only recently about cultivating black soldier fly larvae. Where is it possible to find out more about how to do that and would it be warm enough in the uk.

Regards

Adrian

[Adrian Horsley]

Carey Ma said:

Hi Adrian,

Thanks for the plug TC

Your questions and concept is (in my book) the way to go. I too believe in having systems as natural as possible. Unfortunately, this means rather complicated and large systems. Ponds and converted swimming pools are ideal so it all depends on what you have to work with. Unlike most aquapons, I believe in much more biodiversity to the point of incorporating AP into the whole farm concept. My smallest pond is 1/4 acre times 10 feet deep.

I am a fourth generation American organic farmer based in communist China, working as a Bio-intensive/dynamic, Permaculture based Farmscape Architect & Consultant. Please feel free to read though my psychobabble and ask any questions. I'll try to respond the best I can but even though I come to this site mainly for respite during the production season (March through November) I will do the best I can. My main input in this site is during the winter when I have much more free time. Anyway, I suggest you build and run a smaller "traditional" system to get your feet wet and after a year or so, begin to expand and experiment to find what works best in your area with the resources you have, at your personal moral comfort level. There are also many wonderful and knowledgeable people on this site that can help. Kudos to my friends like TC, Gina, Jon Par, Murray, Vlad, Sahib, Nate, Rupert and of course our fearless leader Sylvia.

Many thanks for your comments Carey Ma. If only I had a quarter acre pond. The place where I can put my greenhouse is maximum of 16 by 12 foot and then is squeezed up against the house and a neighbours extension and another neighbours fence and the garden shed. So I cant dig down far without disturbing foundations but could go up a ways although safety with my 2 year old son is an issue. I will spend more time mulling on the way forward during the summer and start gathering building materials.

 Will keep you posted if I make sudden leaps forward

Kind regards

Adrian

Good luck to you & Cheers

[Carey Ma]

Cheers & break a leg!

[George]

UK - I don't know but google the Black Soldier Fly Blog to find out - the site has a locator. 


Adrian Horsley said:

Thanks for your input George.

I have heard only recently about cultivating black soldier fly larvae. Where is it possible to find out more about how to do that and would it be warm enough in the uk.

Regards

Adrian