Low or Nop Iron in system

[Dan Ponton]

I just tested my "Total Iron" in my system and it shows zero (0) ppm.

Has anyone tried putting a small iron pipe or pipe caps in 3-4 media beds?I have about 30% of my expected grow beds working.

This may leech iron into the system.

[matthew ferrell]

I'll try and take one tomorrow.  It's an off brand from True Value that I currently have.  I work in the sticks you know.  We are a one store town.  I do know it's 4-0-0

TCLynx said:

mathew, what brand?  Can you snap a picture of the bottle sometime for us?

Now I have found that what the big box stores carry will be quite different from place to place.  Heck, I know the ones right around me, one store will have certain things and the next store down you get looks like you have two heads when you ask for the same thing.  But anyway, local demand can greatly affect what the local stores carry.

[Dan Ponton]

Has anyone ever tried "Green Light" Iron & Soil Acidifier?

it is a iron supplement and soil acidified

It has:

3.1% sulfur

.12% chelated copper

4.6% chelated iron

.12% chelated zinc

it is derived from HEDTA copper, iron and zinc.

I think this should take care of low iron and high PH (7.5 ppm)

[Vlad Jovanovic]

It will also take care of your fish hehe...I have a similar product, but would not use it regularly (or at all) in an AP system because of the copper and the zinc. (Both of which tend to kill fish). Were you not able to online purchase the chelated iron product linked in an earlier post? 

[Dan Ponton]

not yet, but I am today now that I know I should not use what I have

thanks

Vlad Jovanovic said:

It will also take care of your fish hehe...I have a similar product, but would not use it regularly (or at all) in an AP system because of the copper and the zinc. (Both of which tend to kill fish). Were you not able to online purchase the chelated iron product linked in an earlier post? 

[matthew ferrell]

The copper in this should be too low to care about Vlad?  I mean we are talking 1 or 2 tablespoons into hundreds of gallons.

Granted proper alkalinity and all.

[matthew ferrell]

I'm a big lair and forgot to take a picture today.

matthew ferrell said:

I'll try and take one tomorrow.  It's an off brand from True Value that I currently have.  I work in the sticks you know.  We are a one store town.  I do know it's 4-0-0

TCLynx said:

mathew, what brand?  Can you snap a picture of the bottle sometime for us?

Now I have found that what the big box stores carry will be quite different from place to place.  Heck, I know the ones right around me, one store will have certain things and the next store down you get looks like you have two heads when you ask for the same thing.  But anyway, local demand can greatly affect what the local stores carry.

[Dan Ponton]

My PH is now up to 8 PPM and my ammonia is 0ppm while the nitrites are about 5ppm

I put about 1 cup of vinegar in tonight. That's in a 1000 gallon fish tank so it may not do anything.The vinegar is made from grains and is at 5% acidity.

I have heard that this is only a temporary fix

matthew ferrell said:

The copper in this should be too low to care about Vlad?  I mean we are talking 1 or 2 tablespoons into hundreds of gallons.

Granted proper alkalinity and all.

[Eric Warwick]

pH--the amount of H ions in a solution (if acidic) and the amount of OH- in a solution if basic. Not only will the cup of vinegar do "something" (acetic acid is a weak acid) it will probably move it a tiny bit. I suggest using a stronger acid (in lower amounts) for a 1,000 gallon tank. Also, this is a very important tip--pH is not measured in PPM (parts, substance, per million, usually molecules of solution, such as water) it is measured on a logarithmic scale of 1-7 and 7-14. There are ways to calculate how much acid or base/alkali you may need. This is using simple math with a calculator (that has a log' button). You'll calculate how many H ions you need using the log' scale. This translates with the chemical you're adding (and I'm pretty sure they're instructions and math done for you online). In general you can look up the balanced chemical equation to figure out what it will do in water and use stoichiometry    to translate the amount of say Hydrochloric Acid .5Molar to how many H ions or pH swing you'll get and vice versa. This is probably confusing now, but I assure you, if you learn a little basic chemistry you'll get to a good spot with this. Also, it is a temporary fix because, your water may be naturally basic/alkaline, so adding "water" will neutralize the acid, thus making it more basic. If you, or ANYONE on this thread have any questions ask them now--or 2 months later (it gets e-mailed to me all the same).

 
Dan Ponton said:

My PH is now up to 8 PPM and my ammonia is 0ppm while the nitrites are about 5ppm

I put about 1 cup of vinegar in tonight. That's in a 1000 gallon fish tank so it may not do anything.The vinegar is made from grains and is at 5% acidity.

I have heard that this is only a temporary fix
 

[Vlad Jovanovic]

Well, lets see Dan says he has 3 or 4 media beds...without knowing anything else, lets just assume his system water volume total is around 800 US gallons minimum.

Most all commercial and university research places like to keep iron at around 2-3 mg/L (ppm) and add that amount every three weeks (as in the case of UVI) to a month...I understand that not every backyard system may necessitate this frequency of iron addition, but many of them do.

So...800 US Gallons is 3026 litres, but we will round off to 3000. If the product was 100% iron you would need 6 to 9 grams to get you to 2-3mg/L (mg/L is the same as ppm).

But since its not 100% iron but 4.6% you would need to add 130 to 200 (rounded off) grams to get you to 2-3ppm iron (2-3 ppm is the scientifically generally recognized concentration of iron (Fe2+) in solution that will stave off deficiency in most plants). 

To me, that's putting in A LOT of both copper and zinc regularly in order to get a little iron.

People go through much trouble at times to keep fish toxic copper and zinc out of their systems. It would seem silly (or reckless, and likely dooming your system to "unexplained" fish kills) to be putting in those amounts on purpose, regularly. Especially in order to save 10 or 15 bucks.

People are free to do whatever they want (like save a couple bucks by using a copper heating element instead of stainless steel or titanium, then a couple of months later wonder why all their fish are dead). But I could not in good conscience advise someone that the Planets will align and all other conditions will be met for X amount of copper (or zinc even) in their systems to be OK. Shooting for no extra copper, no extra zinc would IMO be very wise and prudent.

(crap, I just saw the above post where Dan mentions a 1000 gallon fish tank, but don't feel like re-doing the math...at any rate that just means that Dan would be adding even more product.

Yes, high alkaline (high pH) water will help mitigate the toxic effect of copper somewhat, since the carbonates will complex with the copper helping to precipitate some of it out...but on the other side of that coin, it seems most metals are much more toxic to fish at lower pH (the kind people shoot for in AP...below 7).

Dan if you are still cycling the pH will fall all by itself eventually as nitrification kicks in... You can foliar feed your plants until that happens...If you still want to lower pH because of you plants use something like hydrochloric acid. This will "eat up" some carbonates and release some chloride ions, which can only be beneficial to the fish once you get them and doesn't have the anti-bacterial properties of vinegar or citric acid. (don't confuse chloride with chlorine as some have done).

matthew ferrell said:

The copper in this should be too low to care about Vlad?  I mean we are talking 1 or 2 tablespoons into hundreds of gallons.

Granted proper alkalinity and all.

[Vlad Jovanovic]

I forgot to add...all that being said...That is a pretty small amount of copper and/or zinc percentage wise. The chelated iron plus trace element product I have seems geared more towards tomatoes and grapes in that copper content is 0.76%.

Still though...why risk it if you don't have to?

[TCLynx]

Hi Dan,  If you are still cycling up, I wouldn't stress too much about a pH of 8.  Are you Fishless cycling or are there fish in there?  The 5 ppm of nitrite is concerning if you have fish, in which case I would salt to 1 ppt. Salt for Fish Health

If fishless, just be patient.

Generally a high quality fish food will provide all the copper and zinc needed so adding more is not advisable so I would recommend finding Iron without the other stuff.  If you can't find any, message me, I know where I can be gotten in FL though it costs a bit (sold at BWI down here by me.)

As to your pH long term.  What is your source water pH?  Before you answer read this pH and tap water much of our water here in FL comes from limestone aquifers which will give you water high in calcium carbonate which will tend to buffer the water up.  Since we are in a normally fairly rainy climate, I would say try to collect as much clean rain water as you can for topping up so that you don't have to get an RO filter for your water if your source water is the reason for your high pH.

On the other hand, what is your media?  Some people discover that not all pea gravel is the same,  You want to make sure your high pH is not being caused by say limestone in your grow beds.  If your media is the cause of your high pH problem, don't bother with acid, it will only cause pH bouncing and won't work.  Take some of your gravel and rinse it well then drop it in a glass of vinegar to see if it fizzes or not.  Fizzing is a sign of a reaction between a base and the acid and would indicate your gravel is unsuitable.

Dan Ponton said:

My PH is now up to 8 PPM and my ammonia is 0ppm while the nitrites are about 5ppm

I put about 1 cup of vinegar in tonight. That's in a 1000 gallon fish tank so it may not do anything.The vinegar is made from grains and is at 5% acidity.

I have heard that this is only a temporary fix

matthew ferrell said:

The copper in this should be too low to care about Vlad?  I mean we are talking 1 or 2 tablespoons into hundreds of gallons.

Granted proper alkalinity and all.

[Dan Ponton]

I agree, better safe then sorry

How do you know if your system is cycled? I think mine is

0 ammonia and 5ppm of nitrites.

I don't have a test kit for nitrates yet.

Vlad Jovanovic said:

I forgot to add...all that being said...That is a pretty small amount of copper and/or zinc percentage wise. The chelated iron plus trace element product I have seems geared more towards tomatoes and grapes in that copper content is 0.76%.

Still though...why risk it if you don't have to?