Location Location Location?

[Ryan Sala]

If you had a choice to set up AP system anywhere in the US.. Where would it be? Maybe you would want to start a business up like me. Maybe just for yourself.. Im struggling with wether to stay in DFW, and hope that Denton Tx. will have enough green consciences individuals to keep my biz a float. However some of my friends in other states are trying to coax me to go to them. One of those places is Reno NV. I have my doubts.. Inputs? Opinions? 2 cents? Pearls of Wisdom? 

[Chip Pilkington]

Hi Ryan,

I'm certainly no expert on AP, commercial or even hobby. My home systems run beautifully and thanks to extreme bugs and occasionally extreme weather, my experience/education is coming along quite well (total credit to forums like this one).

I have done a lot of digging, reading and debating on the topic of commercial AP. My original intent was to operate a business in SE Asia when it's time to hang up the day job. There are both challenges and opportunites here - things are quite different than in the States in amost every category (I did spend the first 45 years of my life in the US). I have changed my goal significantly, though AP will play a part in it.

I would let this topic go, except that one thing you said really troubles me. Maybe we mean different things when we say "commercial AP" and that could be the issue. My biggest concern was your comment about there not really being any overhead in AP. That is a falsehood that could absolutely kill your business before it gets off the ground. Very little is "free" in the world, especially not in the quantities required to develop a commercial operation. Once again, we may be thinking in different terms as to the volume a commercial operation puts out. Piecing together equipment is ok for a home system...even a large home system as your livelyhood doesn't depend on it. A commercial operation requires "commercial-grade" equipment, dependable and reliable 24/7. I could go on and on about the not-so-little things that really add up from the time you break ground until you actually deliver that product in the nice little (expensive) plastic bag with the cool logo.

A fellow by the name of Damon, who haunts these forums, has shared a wealth of information as to many or all of the incedentals that really hurt. Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now to link you to past posts, both here and on other sites, but maybe others can.

Marketing is a key aspect of any business - you are absolutely right. The challenge is for the marketing folks to not to write checks the production folks can't cash. You will be out the business in a heartbeat, leading back to the reliability of the equipment and just as important, the technical expertise to run it properly.

Please keep digging into the details so you can approach this well prepared. BTW, I would love to visit and kick it around with you. Be back home around August or so!

[Ryan Sala]

Troll. :P

Yeah we are talking about 2 different things I believe.. What size Is a commercial operation to you?

Is it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV9CCxdkOng

or is it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE5kDwvcIRI

or this.

www.herbanfarms.com 

Or bigger?? 

Yeah we are talking about different things. Ill never nor will my group of 7 able mind and bodied individuals who have not another goal in their lives plan on doing much else than making this succeed. Nor will we be putting or doing more than we could handle. Its a custom design bro. the picture on your end is out of focus. On my end its clear. You dont know what we can do. My marine biologist friend here "Isla" said your a troll and I should ignore you lol. You hear more from us in the future :) I think from now on ill stick to more reading and less banter. Sponge activated :)

[Chip Pilkington]

Wow, ok.

You really missed my message if you believe the troll thing. You made an ignorant statement as to overhead expenses and I called you on it (politely). Sorry, but that's what you get when you post a comment like that. Whether we agree or not on AP issues, I'm no troll.

I really hope your "Marine Biologist" friend can blow your nose and wipe your bottom for you on the rest of the challenges you will face in this venture - hopefully "Isla" has a vested stake in it as well.

I liked you better when you had your big boy pants on and were answering for yourself.

 

[Rob Nash]

Chips right, there are soo many more costs involved than just building the grow system. ...and he really hit the nail on the head when warning about reusing materials for production, you cant trust that they will hold up for you 24/7.

and by definition, hes not Trolling... hes making good conversation, (and trying to help you guys not lose your ass) which is why your posting your ideas and plans on this forum, right?    ....it would be to everyone’s benefit if you would have defined your idea of commercial size, and let the conversation roll.

you really are blessed to have a forum with experienced folks making suggestions and comments before making a huge leap of faith... this forum and panel of experts didn’t exist 6 years ago when i still had some money left... i may not have went into it with the "build it slow and cheap and it will work out"... for the record, this will not reap returns enough for seven people to live off of. 

 

i think i may be guilty of Flaming at this point... Lets ask Isla?

[TCLynx]

If you can do it without going into debt to build it, perhaps it will manage.  As soon as you have to make the decision between paying the wages and paying the loan with the initially too small returns there could be issues.  I don't think anyone here is trying to stop you, only trying to caution you.  Make sure you go into it with eyes wide open.

Now I think there may actually be more "commercial" operations out there that are functioning and we don't know about them because they are too busy trying to keep up with it and don't have time to post on the internet.

However, there can't be all that many.

Now I hope you and your group of 7 have some means of living until the new venture takes off because as noted, new start up businesses don't usually pay the owners anything for at least several years, and that is often even when there is no start up debt or additional employees involved.

Good Luck (and I hope it succeeds because I would like to see this take off.)  (and I'm sorry but I also don't think anyone here is being a Troll either, they are all bringing up valid things to look into.  And using used/recycled materials I think is great but when doing it for a commercial operation, there are dangers, like if some customer decides they are going to sue you for growing food in non food grade containers.)

[Ryan Sala]

And again I enjoy having this community, but to just say your overhead is going to bury you over and over. Guess what? I know its going to cost money. My friend never answered for me she just called ya a troll, which is another form of doubting thomas. Its a common thing today in blogs and forums and Im sorry you took it so harshly. Should we talk figures? I can talk figures all day, but without me divulging the X value of our steak. Just enlighten me then! Tell me please how much a system that you in vision "our" company to have? My point is you have repetitively told me that I was going to fail yet you have no idea who or what or how much money I have backing me. Also don't worry I still am totally cool with this.. Its just a bit of my time to talk in circles. So please do tell.. How much is my AP system going to cost? Ill say it one more time though before I stop this message. Telling someone repetitively that they are going to fail at someone is not informing them of dangers also he himself has stated that he never went into business AP style. Well then its all speculative at that point. If you so bent on just saying you'll fail because of X, then just tell me as if your going into business. A ballpark figure of how much a non failing system will cost? Now if youll excuse me I need to step away to get my a$$ wiped. lol :)

Chip Pilkington said:

Wow, ok.

You really missed my message if you believe the troll thing. You made an ignorant statement as to overhead expenses and I called you on it (politely). Sorry, but that's what you get when you post a comment like that. Whether we agree or not on AP issues, I'm no troll.

I really hope your "Marine Biologist" friend can blow your nose and wipe your bottom for you on the rest of the challenges you will face in this venture - hopefully "Isla" has a vested stake in it as well.

I liked you better when you had your big boy pants on and were answering for yourself.

 

[Ryan Sala]

Ahh now here is constructive advice. TCL, I will let ya know that the people that are residing in my coop will be 100% debt free, and range from the ages of 33-53, and the youngest of the 7 is already retired. Without going to another website and quoting the amount of money needed to retire nowadays is very high indeed. 

TCLynx said:

If you can do it without going into debt to build it, perhaps it will manage.  As soon as you have to make the decision between paying the wages and paying the loan with the initially too small returns there could be issues.  I don't think anyone here is trying to stop you, only trying to caution you.  Make sure you go into it with eyes wide open.

Now I think there may actually be more "commercial" operations out there that are functioning and we don't know about them because they are too busy trying to keep up with it and don't have time to post on the internet.

However, there can't be all that many.

Now I hope you and your group of 7 have some means of living until the new venture takes off because as noted, new start up businesses don't usually pay the owners anything for at least several years, and that is often even when there is no start up debt or additional employees involved.

Good Luck (and I hope it succeeds because I would like to see this take off.)  (and I'm sorry but I also don't think anyone here is being a Troll either, they are all bringing up valid things to look into.  And using used/recycled materials I think is great but when doing it for a commercial operation, there are dangers, like if some customer decides they are going to sue you for growing food in non food grade containers.)

[Ryan Sala]

Ahh barrage from mutiple anglessss :) I am not detered.

Rob I took a look at your page a couple weeks ago, and I am very impressed. You guys are taking the troll thing a bit harder than I had anticipated. Its like calling someone a doubting thomas. No offense intended. Anywho mr nash.. So we can dispense with name calling even ones that are harmless at this point. And no rob Isla says you are not flaming. lol So I need to define what I mean by commercial. Good point.. I cant however give you that answer because were going to build to what the area requires. I can tell you what we do have 10 acre property with a well and a pond a house, and stalls. 3 families moving into it. Property is bought and paid in full, and it cost under 200k. This was no ones nest egg. Lets just pretend that the "growing power" model is my goal. I want to make it clear that If I were to sell publicly I would never use a hot tub as my fish tanks. I know it can viewed as unsanitary, and unsavory. So yes at a bare minimum, we will not spare a dime on portions of the system that require commercial grade materials in order to keep it from being viewed negatively. The rest sir, we are going to be utilizing 100% materials that will be posted up on our craigslist. The 4 million people that reside in DFW are giving to a fault :) they dont know that the old saying one mans trash is a another treasure can be useful on the scale we plan it be be applied to. Now thats my goal. We dont have a time frame set where we must make money to counteract spent money in another aspect. Also I had stated in an earlier post that we were going to utilize grants. If anything that is offered to us puts us on a time frame were not comfortable with, then we probably wont accept them. We don't need the funds anyways. It was more or less the thought process of why refuse free?  So at this point were not moving. We have materials starting to accumulate, and when the puzzle pieces fit, we will start building. Were kind of at a halt on this process anyways because the 4 engineers we have cant stop fighting over which design is more efficient. Thats where we are, and I cant speculate beyond that point. These people are all degreed gainfully employed. 

One more thing I do appreciate any help I can get if its in a constructive form. I do respect and enjoy any useful information given to me. Please understand how I feel though since you yourselves were in my shoes at one point. tell me how you reacted when people looked at you and told you that you were nuts for wanting to be a farmer. Or the ones that told you that you would fail. :) 

Rob Nash said:

Chips right, there are soo many more costs involved than just building the grow system. ...and he really hit the nail on the head when warning about reusing materials for production, you cant trust that they will hold up for you 24/7.

and by definition, hes not Trolling... hes making good conversation, (and trying to help you guys not lose your ass) which is why your posting your ideas and plans on this forum, right?    ....it would be to everyone’s benefit if you would have defined your idea of commercial size, and let the conversation roll.

you really are blessed to have a forum with experienced folks making suggestions and comments before making a huge leap of faith... this forum and panel of experts didn’t exist 6 years ago when i still had some money left... i may not have went into it with the "build it slow and cheap and it will work out"... for the record, this will not reap returns enough for seven people to live off of. 

 

i think i may be guilty of Flaming at this point... Lets ask Isla?

[Chip Pilkington]

A troll is someone whose intention is to stir up sh_t and antagonize everyone on a particular thread. I made a general comment, one time, about commercial AP businesses failing, with no knowledge or reference to your personal project. I also didn't discuss the cost of your system - how could I? I simply recommended new, dependable equipment for a commercial operation, which I feel is good advice when you go beyond a hobby setup.

Sorry, but I didn't "repetitively" tell you anything. Not sure where that's coming from...

When you threw the initial questions out there, you sounded both naive and inexperienced. In later posts, you mentioned having learned much from replies to your post. I was offering thoughts based on your asking advice. Why would you pose questions and ask for advice on the site if you've already got all the answers and know exactly how to be successful? Heck, it sounds like you've got a team of rocket scientists and marine biologists to keep the operation on track. Why do you need a silly forum?

It takes a lot of equipment and expertise to run an operation as you've both described and shown through your links. You posted a link to the operation in PA. I wonder what Herban Farm's thoughts might be as to there being very little overhead in setting up and operating their business. Maybe my eyes are deceiving me, but that didn't look like a "pieced together" operation to me. I also wonder how much of their equipment they got free...

Anyway Ryan, you're not the only one feeling like your time has been wasted in this conversation...

[Ryan Sala]

Your words

If commercial AP is your goal, I believe it will fail equally well in most any location.

Good luck!

[Chip Pilkington]

Ha Ha!

Anyone care to make a wager on this one??

[Ryan Sala]

So I guess well leave it at that then. I am inexperienced chip. I dont claim to have all the answers. I do however have a great support system of like minded individuals who have the combined tenacity and drive to make their dreams come true. I do wonder when you speak of reliable commercial equipment. Can you provide me with a link of the products you recommend that I need? The herbafarms largest investment was obviously thier building. Why though is it necessary to have such a beast? Perhaps they moved into that location, and the building was preexisting. The rest however is low tech. Ive actually spoken to the owner of that location, and he had divulged to me the amount of people he has working for him, and some other tidbits. Now I cant say that I will jump of and emulate any aspect of this operation, in fear that I would be in over my head. ****** Ahh I was responding to your newest comment when another came in. Wagers? its not a game dude. I think at this point your trying to ascertain some sort of dominance in this field, and you feel the need to use arrogance as your only tool unlike the others you have made no attempts to answer any of my real questions, and yes you saying wagers, is just another form of telling me again that I will fail? To what ends.. Well you feel as if you have something to prove with me, and that tickles me. I cant really divulge any more time on this, and yeah I do feel like your stirring things up. You don't know how to constructively communicate, you might be a educated person per say in regard to AP, but you fail at utilizing that knowledge with responsibility as far as Im concerned. Whoda thought someone like yourself would be on a forum that would exist only to educate others. detestable. Heck I even followed up on you asswiping comment and rolled with it jokingly, but now your acting as if were at a bar and I was the guy who walked in and ruined you and your friends your calling out fors pool game. Im afraid without you knowing what we have in this situation, which I was eager to share earlier.. You cannot tell me that I will fail based on anything I've said.     

Chip Pilkington said:

Ha Ha!

Anyone care to make a wager on this one??