Tracking reality:

[neverfear]

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What's up with that?

[Alexandre Letellier]

Actually trolls are an underestimated resource in aquaponics and permaculture. I just read a study and it turns out that troll's poo is highly nutritious, way more than fish poo ! Since this thread is about hard-core DATA, here's the break down, for your reading pleasure :

TROLL POO ANALYSIS :

Phosphorus - 73 mg
Magnesium - 27 mg
Calcium - 51 mg
Iron - 0.92 mg
Sodium - 6 mg
Zinc - 0.9 mg
Copper - 0.12 mg
Manganese - 0.092 mg

Selenium - 0.8 mcg

Also contains small amounts of other minerals.

Impressive uh ? This could really be a boon for aquaponics methinks ... 

Debra Colvin said:

HUH?

Methinks I spotted a troll...

[neverfear]

Denial (also called abnegation) is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.^[1] The subject may use:

• simple denial: deny the reality of the unpleasant fact altogether
• minimisation: admit the fact but deny its seriousness (a combination of denial and rationalization)
• projection: admit both the fact and seriousness but deny responsibility.

[Alexandre Letellier]

Obtuse  (b-ts, -tys, b-)

adj. obtuser, obtusest

a. Lacking quickness of perception or intellect.

b. Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity: an obtuse remark.

[neverfear]

"You can ignore reality but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality"!

[neverfear]

<-------- Is a "harvest moon" rising over the ocean.

"Sanity is an Island surrounded by an ocean of frothing delusion"

[Vlad Jovanovic]

"The common Wood-Troll, or Fourchanrandomspamlongstringofnumbersobscurepopculturereferencecursewordum is a close relative of the Orangutan, minus fur and the ability to form a cohesive thought. The troll began developing differently from the common jungle ape after the great Ape-Troll war of 2300 BC. In the end there was a stalemate: Trolls made all Orang-utans become gingers and lose the dash in their name, while Orang-Utans made all trolls lack the ability to craft an insult, and gain an incredibly inflated sense of self worth.

The modern Troll is much more clever than his ancestor, and many have been known to get work in human environments, surviving fairly easily. With the emergence of Trolls in modern culture, human researchers have been able to uncover some truth about the gentle giant. Their favorite food is children's pine pie which is in Latin "Children's Pinus Erectus"

Trolls are hard workers, but are only known to work for Dark Lords, or "People Who Have Bigger Clubs." Many humans have asked Trolls of a certain favor or another. These humans are usually regarded as a tasty snack for the common Troll, and are eaten on the spot.

Impressive analysis of troll-nutes Alexandre...Now I've heard of reports (no hard-core DATA to substantiate of course), that if you can capture one alive (not all that hard to do), that the massive amounts of CO2 that they give off through incessant jibbering can be harnessed and used to aid in photosynthesis. First of course you need to cool all that hot air, and keep the CO2 down to around 1200ppm. This of course is the hard part.

Alexandre Letellier said:

Actually trolls are an underestimated resource in aquaponics and permaculture. I just read a study and it turns out that troll's poo is highly nutritious, way more than fish poo ! Since this thread is about hard-core DATA, here's the break down, for your reading pleasure :

TROLL POO ANALYSIS :

Phosphorus - 73 mg
Magnesium - 27 mg
Calcium - 51 mg
Iron - 0.92 mg
Sodium - 6 mg
Zinc - 0.9 mg
Copper - 0.12 mg
Manganese - 0.092 mg

Selenium - 0.8 mcg

Also contains small amounts of other minerals.

Impressive uh ? This could really be a boon for aquaponics methinks ... 

Debra Colvin said:

HUH?

Methinks I spotted a troll...

[neverfear]

A shill, plant or stooge is a person who helps a person or organization without disclosing that he or she has a close relationship with that person or organization. Shill typically refers to someone who purposely gives onlookers the impression that he or she is an enthusiastic independent customer of a seller (or marketer of ideas) that he or she is secretly working for. The person or group that hires the shill is using crowd psychology, to encourage other onlookers or audience members to purchase the goods or services (or accept the ideas being marketed). Shills are often employed by confidence artists. Plant and stooge more commonly refer to any person who is secretly in league with another person or organization while pretending to be neutral or actually a part of the organization he or she is planted in, such as a magician's audience, a political party, or an intelligence organization (see double agent).

[neverfear]

The Legend of Boone

Once upon a time, whilst ye deluded misery monkeys were still soiling in your Pampers, there was a retired veterinarian by the name of Boone.  Dr. Boone Mora to be precise.  And being bored in his dawning retirement, he did enroll in an IAVS course offered by Dr. Mark McMurtry at NCSU (in '90,'91,'92).  And Boone did see the light, and the beauty, and the synergy and gave thanks for the knowledge he did receive.  So, in 1993, Boone did successfully solicit the State of NC's Resource Conservation and Development Council for a grant with which to purchase a defunct greenhouse and have it re-erected on a NCSU Horticultural Research Station (near Greenville).  Dr. Mora then established a 100,000 sq ft IAVS system (per Dr. McMurtry's design) inside said greenhouse and he did operate same with the help of his wife and the occasional local laborer without need of any further assistance from Dr. McMurtry or the IAVS research team at NCSU (at that time).

During the first year of growing operations, Dr. Mora realized the following results:

Tilapia (niloticus, sex-reversed) production (biomass increase) 113.5 kg/cu m yr

Cucumber: yield 25 to 30 kg/sq m crop

Peppers: 15 to 20 kg/sq m crop

Tomatoes: 20 to 25 kg/sq m crop

Lettuce:  as intercrop in rotation (good, result not measured)

FCR from 1: 1.25 to 1:1.30

With marginal aeration (DO saturation), no water temperature regulation, no CO2 augmentation, no evaporative-cooling system nor the use of any pesticides

In the second year (1994), his results were comparable, if not slightly better.  Of course, Dr Mora knew the "secret" (not actually a secret), and he knew because he listened, and learned, and followed the advise offered by those who knew WTF they were doing (doing is not talking ).  The 'secret' is microbes.  If (when) bacteria are 'happy' (thriving vs surviving), then so does everything else that depends on them (which includes you, btw).  The 'secret' of bacterial 'happiness' is real estate AKA "location location location" (substrate selection, environment) with (plus) an abundance of molecular oxygen with which they may access/process their 'food'.

Dr. Mora sold his products to local (mainly rural) grocers at VERY low unit prices since almost no one had them ever heard of Tilapia and where vegetables are not considered a staple in the local diet.  Despite the low prices he received, he paid ALL expenses, paid himself a living salary, paid his help including his wife, and earned a profit of about $50,000 (that's $78,500 in 2011 dollars).  Eighteen and 19 years ago.  Dr. Mora then became to ill and weak to continue working every day.  He closed the greenhouse to do battle with advancing years and eventually succumbed to the Great Harvester.

And he did not live "Happily Ever After".

The End.

So, right there (above) is more data in one post (all documented, with hard evidence for those rare few that know what research and fact-finding actually is, and with 1000's of first-hand eyewitnesses) than has appeared on this entire waste of bandwidth since its inception.

Bullshit: it does cometh from bovines, much anymore.   Bullshit is a spectacularly prolific product produced almost exclusively by folically challenge simians, aka misery monkeys and most effectively distributed (at light speed) over the internet. 

PS : You're NOT welcome - because you are a) incapable of experiencing appreciation, b) non-receptive to demonstrable fact, c) ungrateful for unsolicited attempts to inform your willful militant ignorance (unsettle your prejudice, AKA ego), and/or d) all of the above.

PPS : Sample photos from a few of Dr. McMurtry's research crops at NCSU (at 1 of 3 IAVS facilities spanning 8+ years) now appear at http://www.aquaplanetonline.com/#!gallery. Those 17 images were from 1986-87 tomato and cucumber crops in v:v ratio studies [4x4 RCB] facility,  Initial IAVS systems/development at NCSU began in 1984.

[Alexandre Letellier]

Bore  (bôr, br)

tr.v. bored, bor·ing, bores

To make weary by being dull, repetitive, or tedious:  "The troll bored us."

n.

One that is wearingly dull, repetitive, or tedious. Example:  "This is the most boring troll I've ever encountered."

[neverfear]

I was assuming that you

read

comprehend

care

GAF

The ONLY reason that anyone (including you, you, you and me) have ever heard of (so-called) 'ebb and flow' et al "aquaponics" in the first thru last place - NTM that you can  legally 'do' (attempt) it today (and always) - is that (because) Drs McMurtry, RG Hodson, PV Nelson, DC Sanders, et al. prevented (long complicated 'story') NCSU from transferring (selling) "proprietary rights" to the technology to the likes of ADM, Monsanto, RJR Nabisco, Campbell's, and a dozen other multinational ag-conglomerates (each) seeking exclusivity (and to secure Patent positions).  Eventually, any/all "rights" were formally granted ("returned") to Dr. McMurtry as the "Inventor of Record" and then he (and associates) did actively disseminate said 'system' across the country and the globe (via seminars, workshops and courses at various universities, research institutes, governments (US, mid-east, Africa), and 100's of PVO's and NGO's etc.) thru 1996.

[Nate Storey]

This is a great thread!  insert <eatingpopcornandsittinginthecornerenjoyingtheshow.gif>

In any case, I've cited Dr. McMurty a great deal.  He did some wonderful work on hydoponic and aquaponic production.  However, he's not the be-all and end all of AP.  Dr. Rakocy contributed an immense amount of knowledge to the field as well as Dr.s Lennard and Leonard out of Australia.  This is just in academia- numerous hobbyists turned educators like Mr. Murray Hallam and Mr. Joel Malcom, the Speranos, and the like have contributed a great deal as well.  (Murray Hallam defined a great deal of the contemporary terms and designs. . . i.e. who would have heard of or used terms like CHOP and CHOP2 systems if not for Murray?)

This is the reality:  There are so many people out there making incredible contributions to this field and we are all both contributors and receivers of that knowledge.  Anyone who claims to know it all is full of it, but so many of the people on this site have a lot to contribute, and many of the ones above who I have listed have already contributed considerably more than someone like you.

I do this research for a living and for pleasure.  I use solid statistical design and replications.  I report my data.  Where is yours to report?  And really, are you so snobbish that you'll only recognize data that is the result of a massive university study with in-depth statistical analysis?  Many of the early naturalists who performed non-replicable science based on observation would like to have a word with you.  While stats is always great for publication there is a host of information to be gleaned from observation alone.  Much of what is observed and reported on a laymans level actually becomes fodder for my research down the road, paving the way of progress, from the bottom up.

[Vlad Jovanovic]

Man, I said that I wasn't going to do this...(DFTT!!...DFTT!!), but this is on the slim chance that your intentions are in your own idiosyncratic way, honorable...

Yes, I believe that many here are familiar with the publications documenting the early NCSU work with sand bed culture, and those that built off of it, (i.e the Speranoe)...New Alchemy, UVI, USDA-ARS Appalachian Fruit Research Station in Kearneysville, WV and on and on and on...(and many, many others) All very good and interesting reading. Their work is highly commendable and held in high regard, and are the building blocks that a lot of us have leaned on... But as someone pointed out, this is after all a social networking site...not a university/research center. So unless your post and jibes were some sort of 'inside-bickering' about "who invented AP first" with someone in particular here, I really don't see point? BTW...I feel that there is actually A LOT good data to be mined here, maybe not of the strain that you are harping for, but it's still here...

Sure there is a lack of all sorts of info/data relating to not just the economic feasibility, but the biology as well (even at the university/industry research level. But, again I just don't see your point? What were you expecting to find? Here? If you feel there is a lack of "data" here, by all means please enlighten us with some of your own...