Criticism of Fish Care

[Rob Torcellini]

I'm curious to know how people deal with criticism of the welfare of their fish.  I have an indoor and outdoor system and I make sure my fish are well cared for and I really keep a low stocking density.  The other day, I had this comment left on a video that featured both systems  (http://youtu.be/VBspR2p0YYM):

Interesting set up, though your indoor fish tank is really sad and awful, Do you not realise that that fish is a being, should not be in a totally empty tank, what a life!

Please do something about it!!

My response was:

I feel I must respond to this since I am the subject of this video and own this setup. These fish are well cared for and I always keep less fish per gallon than most people do. There is no need to put objects in a tank as they have no desire to be entertained by them. In fact, objects can be a hazard where they can be injured against them. She is about 6 years old and will easily live 25-30 years unlike most people that end up flushing them in a year or two.

BTW, the fish in question is in this video:

[Alexandre Letellier]

Our culture humanizes animals on one hand and uses them as biological machine hardware parts in food factories on the other... Both are silly, and taken together the dichotomy between these two behaviors is worse than silly because it is frighteningly schizophrenic (at a societal level)  ... But yeah aquaponics is I think close to the ideal middle ground, another great point in its favor IMHO.

Cindy Yandell said:

I agree with Sheri that our culture humanizes animals, which IMO is kind of silly.  I think you gave the perfect response.  Does this person think fish in streams have little castles and pirate ships to swim through?  lol

[Carey Ma]

Hmmm, Dare I wade into this...esp. not being able to see the video? But of course I will. It is my responsibility to voice my concerns....hehe

Anywho, I must say everyone comment I've read so far is valid. The thing is, everyone has a different perspective. It is how we choose to look at this and every other aspect in our lives.

Do fish have a sense of being? I believe the answer is a resounding yes! With different breeds exhibiting different traits. Remember, we that raise/ grow for food have extracted life from natural habitats and confine them to categories and pens. This process in itself is unnatural. Those of us that choose to do things as holistically as possible try our best to duplicate nature instead of using our modern (oil subsidized) way of producing food, forcing nature to the breaking point in the name of production and income, (greed).

Of course a pond environment would be far richer lifestyle than any tank, and a balanced and bio diverse tank would be more ideal than a bare stock tank, and that is better than a hazardous or overcrowded tank.

The point is, we have to understand and respect our food as best we can, yet still provide a reasonable income. How we choose to live our lives is directly reflected in our gardens and methods of segregation or confinement. How knowledgeable are we about what we have chosen to do... really? For with each level of knowledge gained, one learns, how much more one still has to learn. In the end. Nature has already done all the testing and balancing to produce the maximum production of symbiotic nutrient cycles. All we have to do is duplicate her processes by synthetically Terra-forming our new farmscapes.

I designed my "entertainment" AP tanks for the enjoyment of all, (including fish). This balanced system is relatively bio diverse. Fish and fry have plants to hide in. Bottom feeders breakdown solids, while aerobic bacteria in the gravel provide nutrient to the plans. With this type of system raising mollies and fancy guppies. The fish are so happy they soon overload the tank forcing you to thin them down by selling them or using them as feeders for bigger/ higher valued fish which my shop is set up to do. My partner raises those small feeder worms and feeds them to the small fish along with my home made feed. Mollies and guppies are fed to the Oscars and Arowana. So all my fish get wonderful, natural food...on a low budget, making it economically sustainable. 

[Sheri Schmeckpeper]

Some people project their own feelings onto animals and don't know how to discern between feeling and fact. If those people ever watched animals in the wild, they might realize how good their lives are in captivity.

I have one breeder separated out for a while and healing because of the battering it took from it's "loved ones." And then, of course, there's the fact that fish will eat their babies and weaker family members. Somehow I get the feeling they don't quite think like we do! 

[Alexandre Letellier]

Hum... A good many humans get a battering from their loved ones on a daily basis as well... A good look at humans "in the wild" will confirm this... And as for "eating their babies" it is also a fact that a good portions of humanity's babies are dying from adult's greed. So fishes and humans may actually "think" quite alike even if the process is let's say more sophisticated in the latter. Then again, cruelty is (mostly) a human trait. So this discussion about not humanizing animals could turn into realizing that we are (still) animals, albeit with a more complex psychological make-up  :)

Don't take the above rant too seriously, I'm just thinking aloud here ;)

 I really think that aquaponics and other conscious farming approaches like permaculture are really "humane" in the best sense of the word.

[Carey Ma]

There is nothing wrong with death, no matter how it comes about. That is just part of the ever-flowing nutrient cycle. In my mind, happy animals make wholesome food. All other methods like the extensive use of grains or feed lot farming (which tank systems are), are not conductive to happiness and vitality. Penned and sheltered does not have to mean prison-like confinement which is reminiscent of modern aquaculture systems. 

Just because the fish don't protest doesn't mean they are happy. Maybe we do humanize animals. So what? I think it is better to side with caution and respect than to blatantly insist that we with limited knowledge and experience know what is best for our livestock. Not long ago, it was common knowledge that the world was flat and the center of the universe.

I truly believe fish have feelings and moods with a bond to their caregivers that is directly proportional to the intensity and time given to their charges.

The real question should be: How much do you respect your charges? What is the motivating factor that drives this venture? If the answer is profit, then I have nothing more to say as long as your conscience is clear. If your answer is to produce wholesome food for your family with excess to sell, let me show you a better way to farm, that is just as or more profitable than what you are doing. Hobbyist systems are too small to be of any account and in my opinion are onto a world of their own. 

Take my chickens and eggs for example; I believe my chooks are the happiest and healthiest animals in China. My patrons (CSA members) all know what I go through to produce the best food possible and are willing to pay three times the retail market price for real, free-range eggs and poultry. From the outside, both eggs look very similar but the proof is in the pudding. Crack them open and the difference is inspiring.

Although the difference isn't quite as apparent with fish. I believe the actual results are the same. Good, wholesome food comes from happy healthy plants and animals.

[Alexandre Letellier]

What he said 

Carey Ma said:

There is nothing wrong with death, no matter how it comes about. That is just part of the ever-flowing nutrient cycle. In my mind, happy animals make wholesome food. All other methods like the extensive use of grains or feed lot farming (which tank systems are), are not conductive to happiness and vitality. Penned and sheltered does not have to mean prison-like confinement which is reminiscent of modern aquaculture systems. 

Just because the fish don't protest doesn't mean they are happy. Maybe we do humanize animals. So what? I think it is better to side with caution and respect than to blatantly insist that we with limited knowledge and experience know what is best for our livestock. Not long ago, it was common knowledge that the world was flat and the center of the universe.

I truly believe fish have feelings and moods with a bond to their caregivers that is directly proportional to the intensity and time given to their charges.

The real question should be: How much do you respect your charges? What is the motivating factor that drives this venture? If the answer is profit, then I have nothing more to say as long as your conscience is clear. If your answer is to produce wholesome food for your family with excess to sell, let me show you a better way to farm, that is just as or more profitable than what you are doing. Hobbyist systems are too small to be of any account and in my opinion are onto a world of their own. 

Take my chickens and eggs for example; I believe my chooks are the happiest and healthiest animals in China. My patrons (CSA members) all know what I go through to produce the best food possible and are willing to pay three times the retail market price for real, free-range eggs and poultry. From the outside, both eggs look very similar but the proof is in the pudding. Crack them open and the difference is inspiring.

Although the difference isn't quite as apparent with fish. I believe the actual results are the same. Good, wholesome food comes from happy healthy plants and animals.

[Eric Warwick]

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/ If you're looking for a philosophical discussion, you'd better use Radical 
Skepticism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_skepticism It's the only way to truly win an argument, or to stop people from talking. 

[Alexandre Letellier]

Good idea :)  Let me try it :

"Radical skeptics hold that doubt exists as to the veracity of every belief and that certainty is therefore never justified."

So, a true radical skeptic cannot justify the certainty of the veracity of radical skepticism itself without contradicting himself ... Or, another way to put it, he must doubt the radical skepticism position as well as any other or he puts himself in the very position that his philosophy is supposed to refute :)

Dam... that was easy ...   ;)

Eric Warwick said:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/ If you're looking for a philosophical discussion, you'd better use Radical 
Skepticism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_skepticism It's the only way to truly win an argument, or to stop people from talking. 

[Eric Warwick]

That's why I love Radical Skeptics.

Alexandre Letellier said:

Good idea  Let me try it :

"Radical skeptics hold that doubt exists as to the veracity of every belief and that certainty is therefore never justified."

So, a true radical skeptic cannot justify the certainty of the veracity of radical skepticism itself without contradicting himself ... Or, another way to put it, he must doubt the radical skepticism position as well as any other or he puts himself in the very position that his philosophy is supposed to refute

Dam... that was easy ...  

Eric Warwick said:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/ If you're looking for a philosophical discussion, you'd better use Radical 
Skepticism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_skepticism It's the only way to truly win an argument, or to stop people from talking. 

[Carey Ma]

Sorry Eric. I don't get your point. What does radical skepticism have to do with this topic?

To me, this is quite plain and dry. One's conclusion is simply a matter of experience and observation coupled with respect. Respect being the key word. Without respect, one can never fathom the possibility that fish may have feelings and preferences, no matter how often they stare. 

Commercial growers do not want to think that their fish suffer in stock tanks, so they can push the limit of production.

[Eric Warwick]

Some of the comments sounded like it. Just bein' snarky.

Carey Ma said:

Sorry Eric. I don't get your point. What does radical skepticism have to do with this topic?

To me, this is quite plain and dry. One's conclusion is simply a matter of experience and observation coupled with respect. Respect being the key word. Without respect, one can never fathom the possibility that fish may have feelings and preferences, no matter how often they stare. 

Commercial growers do not want to think that their fish suffer in stock tanks, so they can push the limit of production.

[Alexandre Letellier]

Eric your fish looks super healthy and in full bloom  :)   I hope my shubunkins will grow that way ...

Carey and I are just advocating against the total denial of well-being factors among fishes and all living things ... And As I said twice already I think that aquaponics is really balanced on that matter because if a well-being balance between plants, microbial life, and fishes is not achieved it simply won't work. In other words, Aquaponics has its own built in ethical watch. If the system sustain itself it means that all its participants are well, there is no way to abuse an aquaponic system for any length of time ...