EGAD! found out BT kills earthworms.

[halemart]

http://www.houseofsalesinc.com/organa/as_the_worm_turns.htm

 

 

I have been trying to up the amount of earthworms in my grow beds, and I was wondering why the population was dropping.    

 

What I was doing was multiplying the BT by using a compost tea and molasses to make a gad zillion BT bacteria.      Looking from the results it looks like I did in fact make a gadzillion of the bacteria which now explains my very poor population of earth worms in my grow beds.   So I did kill many leaf borers, and worms which were destroying my plants.       

 

So, thought I would pass this information along to those out there who are fighting the bad worm, but want the good worm war.     Moral of the story is to be careful where you spray this stuff.

 

Mart

[TCLynx]

Earth worms are a very different kind of worm and the Bacteria BT is very specific to killing the leaf chewing stage of caterpillars (which is a life cycle stage of an insect and not actually a worm though some people will call them worms) so I'm not sure that the BT itself is what has caused your worm population to not grow.

 

Now some BT products will have other additives so if you were spraying huge amounts and high concentration then the sufficant or spreader/sticker used in the product might have a negative impact on worms.  Since worms breath through their skin, any sorts of oils, sufficants, detergents or soaps are just as bad for worms (if not worse) than they are for fish.  So if you have been mixing up any sprays that include oil or dish soap to help it stick to the plants, then I would blame that long before I would think the BT are killing your worms.  I use mosquito dunks heavily which is another kind of BT that targets mosquito larva and the worm population in my tower system where I do have the dunks is doing fine even in the strange environment of the tower media even through the system is swimming in the BT bacteria that kills mosquito larva.

 

Remember that worms require quite a lot of patience.  It can be hard to tell what a worm population is doing without digging everything up to find them which of course will set them back.  Just because you can't find a hand full hiding under every pebble in a grow bed doesn't mean they are not there.  During the heat of summer they may be spending more of their time deeper down in the grow beds where it is cooler.

[halemart]

Thanks TC for the input.    It is true that earthworms take much patience, I have been raising them for over 2 years in various bins, and I am having good success in my self watering bins, now hope to get the 

 

I believe if one uses small amounts of BT on just the leaves the earth worms should do fine, in my case I created a huge batch and poured it into the grow beds.    I only use like 1/2 table spoon for a 5 gallon bucket.   But, with the high sugar content and bubblier,  I believe it was not a good factor for my poor worms.

 

I did put in about 1/2 cup of red worms per bed in the summer  ( I had a huge population in my BSF bin )   and I was feeding each bin consistently banana peals.    Where I feed them I would see about 15 worms consistently

 

I am sure the population is down, as I have moved ALL of the grow beds from where they were to another location. ( I am still sore from that move ughh  )    I did not find worm activity at all. :(

 

BTW,

 

Your Luffa idea you gave me is going crazy in my AP.   I am amazed at the growth rate.

 

 

 

 

[TCLynx]

BT won't work against caterpillars if you don't spray it on the leaves for them to eat it.

It is not a systemic so pouring it in the grow beds won't give your leaves any protection from the chewing caterpillars and I doubt it will be all that effective against the vine borers.  Generally to get the vine borers you inject the BT into the stem ahead of the borer so they will eat some of it and die.

 

Basically it is a gut bacteria that if the caterpillar eats some of it, they get a really bad belly ach that will stop them from eating and eventually kill them after a few days.

 

No worm activity at all is strange though.

[halemart]

Yes, what I do is spray all of my leaves ( underneath with a 2 gallon pump sprayer ) then I would pour the rest over the plants in the grow  with a watering can  ( which a good amount ends up in the grow bed ).

 

I believe now I know the root of my problem  I will do gradual water changes, then add some more worms back to the mix,  Will only spray the leaves and not pour the mixture on the plants in the grow beds from now on.

 

 

 

 

[TCLynx]

Yea the only time I've ever herd of a problem with BT (other than leaf scorching from spraying when it's blistering hot) is when some one mixed up so much that it was pouring into the grow beds.  I think they actually went so far as to killing some fish.  I think they were using the Dipel BT product.  It is probably the "inert" ingredients that could have been the problem.  Or whatever sufficant was in the product.

[Raychel A Watkins]

Is there No Stopping this Hungry Bug? To the rescue...Dipel, a natural insecticide manufactured by the Dragon Chemical Corporation, Roanoke, VA. (and many other companies, under many different trade names like Biobit, Cutlass, and Javelin). Dipel dust has been used for over 40 years to control the ECB and other leaf chewing worms in fields and home gardens.

What is Dipel? Dipel is a microbial insecticide - meaning that it is a bacteria that kills insects! A bag of Dipel Dust contains billions and billions of freeze-dried (dead) cells of the bacterium Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt). These bacteria live naturally in the soil and cause no harm to humans, birds, or plants.

Bt has the useful feature of producing a crystalline protein toxin as it grows. These proteins, called 'crystal proteins', are highly toxic to Lepidopteran insects. When the freeze-dried Bt cell is eaten by the insect, the toxin inside the cell is consumed as well. After the Bt crystal protein is eaten by an insect like ECB, it is activated in the insect's gut. The toxin attaches to the stomach lining of the ECB, where it paralyzes and destroys the cells of the gut wall, allowing the gut contents to leak into the insect's body cavity. Poisoned insects normally remain on plants for a day or two after treatment, but they do not continue feeding and will soon die within 2 or 3 days. Only a small amount of leaf sprinkled with Dipel needs to be eaten to provide a lethal dose...

Bt crystal protein is toxic to most Lepidopterans, like the caterpillars that attack cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, and Brussels sprouts; bag worms and tent caterpillars on trees and shrubs; larvae of the gypsy moth and other forest caterpillars; and the Indian meal moth larvae in stored grain.

Bt is a very safe insecticide to humans, pets, and plants. Treated vegetables and plants can be picked and eaten anytime after spraying with Dipel. Pets and family members can return to the treated area as soon as the Dipel dust is dry and settled. Dipel breaks down quickly when exposed to sunlight - and Dipel is even used by many by organic gardners, since it is a product of natural origin. The Dark Side of Dipel (we will talk about this in class) is that Monarch Butterflies are also Lepidopteran insects....

Dipel in the age of the Genome: Recent advances in Agricultural Biotechnology have produced plants in which the bacterial crystal protein gene - the 'cry' gene - is inserted directly into the plant's chromosome. Such genetically modified plants (GM plants or GMOs) make the Bt crystal protein inside their cells, so that there is no need to sprinkle Dipel on plants. Since their introduction in the 1990s, a large percentage of crops in the United States have been genetically engineered with Bt to resist ECB. Products on the market genetically engineered with Bt to resist Lepidopteran pests include Monsanto's MaisGard and YieldGard Bt corn, Bollgard Bt cotton, and NewLeaf Bt potatoes. This will be the topic of our class discussion starting April 1st...!

Material for this Good For came from
The Iowa State University Entomology Site
The ECB Home Page
How corn is damaged by the ECB

The text of this "What is Biology Good For" exercise is copyrighted under the name of Dr. Kathleen A. Marrs, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003. There are no restrictions on its use by educators or by non-profit institutions as long as its content not modified, proper copyright acknowledgement is retained, and this statement is not removed.

[TCLynx]

Thanks Raychel

[Rob Torcellini]

I use dipel in my greenhouse system without any problems.  I use the powder form and apply it to the leaves.  It can last most of the season since it usually doesn't rain in there.  ;-)   I had a little panic attach when I read this so ran out and dug through one of my beds.  Tons of red wigglers in there.  yea!

[TCLynx]

Even in an outdoor situation, the powdered form that you can dust the plants with can be easier to apply between rains than having to mix up a sprayer and spray the leaves and then washing out the sprayer really well and so on.

[Rob Torcellini]

I put some in a Skippy peanut butter jar and drilled a couple of holes in the lid and use it like a salt shaker.  the trick is to do it when it's not windy!  ;-)

[halemart]

Thanks Rob,

 

I don't want to cause a panic, BT is a wonderful product has save many of my tomato plants from many a horn worm.

The problem I believe I had was over populating the BT before I applied it., and where I applied it.

 

 

Rob Torcellini said:

I use dipel in my greenhouse system without any problems.  I use the powder form and apply it to the leaves.  It can last most of the season since it usually doesn't rain in there.  ;-)   I had a little panic attach when I read this so ran out and dug through one of my beds.  Tons of red wigglers in there.  yea!