A Community and Forum For Aquaponic Gardeners

Micro Hydro-electric power

Has anyone looked into useing a micro hydro-electric power system to power their aquaponics greenhouse? My wife and I are going to start building our first greenhouse and I was sarting to look into power choices. Micro Hydro-electric power caught my eye. I was thinking not only could you supply power to your system, but you could also airate the water for your fish. Let me know what your thoughts are about this idea.

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Permalink Reply by Robert Magnes on April 14, 2011 at 10:30am

I am sure you can, it's the people that like to tinker around with something that always find a way in the end and there is a lot of people like us on this site. As far as what you had to say it did not fall on deaf ears. I always like to hear other opinions about things. That way you know if you are working on something that will be helpful to others or if you are doing it just to satisfy yourself by saying yea I did that. I have a small or micro aquaponics media-bed system running on solar at this time. The wife and I are now starting to build a small raft system using 2 small kiddie pools and a plastic 55 gal drum for the fish tank. I will post pictures as we go on this system.

Mike Konshak said:

OK. Tinkering is fun, my loooong replies are to insure that you are not being taken advantage of by some snake-oil salesman . My aquaponics effort is in the category of tinkering, but I am hoping I can make it sustainable and practical at 10,000 feet. Thanks for your patience. I'm semi-retired (at 63).

Permalink Reply by Robert Richards on May 21, 2011 at 1:28am

I would love that, Now all I need is a river next to the house. As far as the other posts on here about selfpowering hydro, Y'all di'n't pass physics in school, did you? For an easier backup get a small generator and a battery charger.

Permalink Reply by Wayne on May 21, 2011 at 9:37am

I think using the kinetic energy that has already been produced by the pumping of water and return of that water would be enough to charge a battery backup. The small water wheel generators installed where water is dropping from one level to the next is free energy (besides the cost of installation)

A penny saved is a penny earned. A watt produced is a watt you don't have to buy. As far as perpetual energy devices go, they do not exist!

I like to tinker too!

Permalink Reply by Robert Magnes on May 21, 2011 at 9:54am

Your kind of full of yourself aren't you. Your the type that can't get past what is written in the book. These forums are for people to bounce ideas off of each other and see what they come up with. Not to come in here and make rude comments to people. You do know that there is several ways to skin a cat. So maybe you need to open your eyes a little wider, take off the blinders and loose the attiitude.

Robert Richards said:

I would love that, Now all I need is a river next to the house. As far as the other posts on here about selfpowering hydro, Y'all di'n't pass physics in school, did you? For an easier backup get a small generator and a battery charger.

Permalink Reply by Robert Magnes on May 21, 2011 at 10:00am

That's right use the free energy that is already there. Trying to save money where you can and get ideas from each other. You never know what you may come up with when you look at it from another view. Tinkers are the ones who came up with the great inventions, but not without some great failures along the way. That is how we learn.

Wayne said:

I think using the kinetic energy that has already been produced by the pumping of water and return of that water would be enough to charge a battery backup. The small water wheel generators installed where water is dropping from one level to the next is free energy (besides the cost of installation)

A penny saved is a penny earned. A watt produced is a watt you don't have to buy. As far as perpetual energy devices go, they do not exist!

I like to tinker too!

Permalink Reply by Robert Richards on May 21, 2011 at 10:30pm

Just show me. Mechanical systems lose energy, they are not 100% efficient. You would be wasting energy, to pump and fling water, to get energy. I dont have blinders. I saw that you tube video, its a fraud. I laughed! If you hook up a generator to an engine, you dont have to use energy to run a pump, and then squirt it into a pelton wheel.You just use the generator. Its all about Efficiency! I have been off grid for 12 years, someone will give you a money-ectomy if you dont learn a bit more.

Show me, I'd love for you to prove me wrong, and I'll be your biggest booster.

I think I'll go out side and put an airplane prop, on a V-8, and blow it at the wind generator, That will work too. Adding energy to get less, isnt very efficient. What turns the pump, that pushes the genny? What energy? If you dont like snarky comments, dont say dumb stuff.

A thing that does have a permanent energy field, and quite strong, is a magnet. This would be a better route for you, if you can find a way to make it keep moving under its own pull. The niodymium magnets have 100's of times the magnetic energy of the Earth. It is in a small local area, but very powerful. Supposedly this has been done, So, where are they, why are they not on the market? I'd buy even a tiny one,

Robert Magnes said:

Your kind of full of yourself aren't you. Your the type that can't get past what is written in the book. These forums are for people to bounce ideas off of each other and see what they come up with. Not to come in here and make rude comments to people. You do know that there is several ways to skin a cat. So maybe you need to open your eyes a little wider, take off the blinders and loose the attiitude.

Robert Richards said:
I would love that, Now all I need is a river next to the house. As far as the other posts on here about selfpowering hydro, Y'all di'n't pass physics in school, did you? For an easier backup get a small generator and a battery charger.

Permalink Reply by Wayne on May 21, 2011 at 11:16pm

The water is already flowing in the system. Why not recoup some of the energy that has already been spent. No body likes to be called "dumb" and will probably not be willing to listen to you afterwards, no matter how smart you are.

Sum of us peoples di'nt evin took no physics when we got are schooling.

Robert Richards said:

Permalink Reply by Robert Magnes on May 22, 2011 at 10:38am

Like Wayne stated above is basically use what you have on hand. If you have kenetic energy ready to use then use it. If you have parts to build a water wheel generator, then build it. Even if it uses some of the power to run a pump to turn the wheel. As long as it gives you enough power to run the rest of your equipment. It is still free energy no matter how you look at it. The whole idea behind this forum is to get people thinking and exchanging ideas. Not to bad mouth people who you do not even know because you think you are some kind of genius, which we both know you are not.

As far as your "snarky" comments go I guess your parents never told you "If you do not have anything nice to say, then do not say anything at all." This is not a place to for you to try and show everyone just how smart you are, because you have already failed at that. There is a big difference between construtive criticism and being rude. And you have been nothing but rude. You may think you have all the answers but you keep showing that you have no answers. I really could careless how long you have been "off-grid". You more than likely paid a company to come out to install your equipment. You may have read a book or two about alternative energy and then figured that you now know enough to qualify for that "Einstien" badge you have been working on.

Well I have said enough now and figure that I have wasted enough of my life with you. Don't bother replying back because as far as I am concerned there is nothing you can say that would make you look as smart as you think you are.

Permalink Reply by Robert Richards on May 22, 2011 at 11:53pm

Some just wont get it.

Robert Magnes said:

Like Wayne stated above is basically use what you have on hand. If you have kenetic energy ready to use then use it. If you have parts to build a water wheel generator, then build it. Even if it uses some of the power to run a pump to turn the wheel. As long as it gives you enough power to run the rest of your equipment. It is still free energy no matter how you look at it. The whole idea behind this forum is to get people thinking and exchanging ideas. Not to bad mouth people who you do not even know because you think you are some kind of genius, which we both know you are not.

As far as your "snarky" comments go I guess your parents never told you "If you do not have anything nice to say, then do not say anything at all." This is not a place to for you to try and show everyone just how smart you are, because you have already failed at that. There is a big difference between construtive criticism and being rude. And you have been nothing but rude. You may think you have all the answers but you keep showing that you have no answers. I really could careless how long you have been "off-grid". You more than likely paid a company to come out to install your equipment. You may have read a book or two about alternative energy and then figured that you now know enough to qualify for that "Einstien" badge you have been working on.

Well I have said enough now and figure that I have wasted enough of my life with you. Don't bother replying back because as far as I am concerned there is nothing you can say that would make you look as smart as you think you are.

Permalink Reply by Mike Konshak on May 23, 2011 at 8:32pm

RM, Just keep in mind that the water flow you are trying to generate hydropower with isn't 'free' . You are paying 10.4 cents per Kilowatt Hour to run the pump that creates it. As soon as you put ANYTHING in the path of the flow (impellers, elbows, pipe length, lift height, etc) the amount of pressure needed to keep the intended rate of flow as you had before increases and in order for the pump to make more pressure under the new load it requires more electrical energy, therefore more kilowatts, therefore more $ that you give to the electrical provider. The conversion from electrical to pumping to hydro to air pump or (to charger to battery to pump, etc( ad infnitum) provides, as stated repeatedly by others, very little of what you would get for the same buck going directly from electrical provider to an air pump. Keep it simple, if you are able.

I do not think that anyone on this forum wants to purposefully be offensive, even though it may come across that way, but rather to share experiences and benefit from the efforts of others so we all do not wasting time and money on impractical schemes. Be patient with the responses you get, as generally no one would have responded if they didn't have expertise in the topic or a related technology. Maybe I'm naive, but that's how I see it.

Permalink Reply by Robert Magnes on May 23, 2011 at 10:43pm

I understand what you are saying Mike. But maybe he could have put it a different way instead of coming off so cocky. Maybe it's just just me as I get older, I don't put up with attitudes anymore. My wife tells me to take a deep breath and count to 10, maybe I'll try that someday.

But if you use the energy in the return water back to the fish tank to turn a generator then that should be free or nearly free to produce power. On a flood & drain system this won't work but on a raft or NFT system with a constant flow of water you could make it work. Just something to tinker with.

Mike Konshak said:

RM, Just keep in mind that the water flow you are trying to generate hydropower with isn't 'free' . You are paying 10.4 cents per Kilowatt Hour to run the pump that creates it. As soon as you put ANYTHING in the path of the flow (impellers, elbows, pipe length, lift height, etc) the amount of pressure needed to keep the intended rate of flow as you had before increases and in order for the pump to make more pressure under the new load it requires more electrical energy, therefore more kilowatts, therefore more $ that you give to the electrical provider. The conversion from electrical to pumping to hydro to air pump or (to charger to battery to pump, etc( ad infnitum) provides, as stated repeatedly by others, very little of what you would get for the same buck going directly from electrical provider to an air pump. Keep it simple, if you are able.

I do not think that anyone on this forum wants to purposefully be offensive, even though it may come across that way, but rather to share experiences and benefit from the efforts of others so we all do not wasting time and money on impractical schemes. Be patient with the responses you get, as generally no one would have responded if they didn't have expertise in the topic or a related technology. Maybe I'm naive, but that's how I see it.

Permalink Reply by Mike Konshak on May 24, 2011 at 12:07am

RM, You are correct that as of that point, the gravity is the force behind your waterfall. The higher you place the feed above the impeller/turbine/wheel the more force you'll have to turn the thing, however that also means that the pump is working harder to lift it back into the system. One problem I've had in the conversion of such devices whether its wind or water is that nothing is very effective a low speeds. If you try and gear up the generator to get higher gear ratios you end up needing more force. Note that every time you double the velocity you'll get 4 times the kinetic energy. You can make a small aperture (putting your thumb over the hose) but then there needs to be a higher pressure behind it. So... you make a large surface area container that has the air pressure (14.7 pounds per inch squared (PSI)) pushing on it with the acceleration of gravity forcing it through a small hole which drives your turbine at a higher RPM. Sounds good until you realize that to replenish the large diameter tank mounted high above your turbine, you need a 10 times more powerful pump than you had before. Picture those small town water tank towers that supply water to the homes at 70 psi. The water pressure to the homes comes from the height and the diameter of the water tank. The pump lifts water up slowly into the tank, but constantly over 24 hours. The output is an intermittent demand off-and-on at a higher pressure. In your case It becomes an instance of diminishing returns as there is no way you want to move water that fast through a raft system. Anyway your air pump needs to have a low voltage motor such that the generator driving it can produce a higher voltage (rpm/volt) just to cover the mechanical inefficiencies. Its an impossible situation without adding power in somewhere.

If the whole goal was to aerate your water to the tank just send it through a pipe with lots of little holes so that there is more surface area of the stream contacting the air. See my drain in this system.....

NOW its free. :o)

Robert Magnes said:

But if you use the energy in the return water back to the fish tank to turn a generator then that should be free or nearly free to produce power. On a flood & drain system this won't work but on a raft or NFT system with a constant flow of water you could make it work. Just something to tinker with.