IBC Aquaponics

Guess I'll have to do more FB. The Forums have been pretty quiet this winter.  

Jim,

if you didn't need the filtration would you make all your beds wicking beds? Does it perform better than media beds?

Hey Vlad, right on. We have @ 2500g so that's a lot of thermal mass in a 24x22' GH.

M & K, I designed that bed so it could be DWC, Media or wicking. I feed it at both ends and drain at the middle for that reason. If it were a dedicated DWC I could have filled at one end and drained at the other but with media or wicking I wanted to avoid any chance of a dead zone (anaerobic pocket)

Jeff, I (we) are very compost prone and love to sup with montmorillonite (mineral clay), green sand, etc and that works best in a well rounded compost. BUT we still need bio-filtration and conversion and that requires a lot of surface are for the required bacteria and lots of system water contact so a balance of both works to advantage as we still raise great tasting trout. Otherwise compost beds in a GH would be just fine for simply raising organic veggies. It's all about the system dude. lol.

So, in a regular cut IBC tank GB, to prevent dead zones, is it best to fill from one corner and drain to the opposite or fill from multiple sides/corners and drain to the middle? Or is it not that big of a deal since it's only 45 x 47"?

We were just discussing the options and benefits/drawbacks of GB #3 and how easy or problematic it would be to transition it from DWC to wicking to media. Options are always good.

Thanks again for all the suggestions. 

Michael, I see a lot of GBs with the inlet manifold running around the perimeter and entering thru small holes or slits and what I see is a maintenance headache due to clogs from solids. I like KISS and enter at one corner with a simple rotating (and cheap) 90 to adjust flow and exit as far as practically possible from the inflow. Opposite corners does just that. Like I always say "think like water" when you're doing plumbing, lol.

In the case of our 13' x 3' GB I enter at both ends and exit at the center so that bed can be any of the 3 types. I can monitor the water flow visually due to the gravel guards at each inflow. Very KISS. The wicking bed is out of control!! Been harvesting for a few weeks now. Still keep in mind that it is the 5 IBC media beds performing the nitrogen cycle (bio-filters harboring the vital bacteria). The wicking bed is merely a "grow bed" which lives off the system water clarified by those IBC media beds and does very little filtering. It does introduce compost tea and worm castings, however, to the system.

Jim, If the soil/compost and worms are separated from the water flow how do castings and tea get into the system?

Hey Jeff. They are still in the loop and I have cycled for as much as a week at a time with no ill effects noted (since that initial tea coloring over night the first night). Just that 1/2" or so of contact when the bed hits high level and kicks the siphon in is enough to inoculate the water. I now let it cycle for a few days and shut it off for a few. The plants grow significantly in 24hrs when the water is on.

Good morning.  Need some advice.  My goldfish are dying off at about 3 per week.  Have had them for about a year and the sizes vary from a couple of inches to about 5 inches(2 of them).  The dead ones dont show any visible sign of disease or trauma.  My ammonia is almost 0, nitrites are 0, nitrates appear to be in the 40 to 60 ppm range.  PH is tending to drop below 6.5 and I have been trying to keep the PH closer to 7.0 with equal amounts of calcium and potassium hydroxide(small additions).  The fish and plants look healthy, the water is clear.  I have done 25% water changes every month.  Started with 50 fish and down to 20.  Lost most in the first few months then the odd one for many months, now a consistent  3 per week.  Would appreciate any advice!!

Mike,  Sorry to hear about your fish.  Any chance you have brass or copper in your system?  Any galvanized would also be a problem.  Is your set-up a CHOP type?

Also forgot to ask, why the regular water changes?  Once you are through cycling, water changes shouldn't be needed unless you are correcting for some way out of whack water chemistry.  Is you water chlorinated or treated with a water softener?

Mike, while we await ans to Arthur's excellent questions I just wanted to mention that the only fish deaths we have had in 4 yrs (since system maturity) (trout fingerlings) were due to low PH and I use wood ashes from the GH woodstove at each GB inlet (about 1/2 cup in each of 5 GBs in our 2500g system) to naturally raise ph and trace minerals and some bio-char and it has worked perfectly. By adding it at the GB inlets the bacteria have a chance to work it before it hits the sump and on to the 5 FTs. Our mature trout never gave any indication of a problem, only the newly introduced @4" fingerlings. Since our awakening we always run a PH test before we introduce new fish.

Mike I was terrible with controlling pH for the longest time but never had any fish loss due to it. I have Tilapia in 4 tanks and goldfish in another. Once while the pH was really low (Less than 6) my goldfish were showing signs of stress but as soon as I raised it the problem went away. I've read and seen videos on changing pH rapidly being bad but I haven't experienced that when I make pH adjustments. My only fish loss has come when the power went out and I lost about 30 Tilapia out of 1000 before I got it corrected.

Jim, I like your idea of using wood ashes to control pH. What do you put them in?

Jeff, the GBs lol

"I use wood ashes from the GH woodstove at each GB inlet (about 1/2 cup in each of 5 GBs in our 2500g system) to naturally raise ph and trace minerals and some bio-char".

I actually place short slotted "gravel guards" at the inlets to trap any solids that get past the swirl filter and I place the ashes in those. I make them from scrap left over from making our bell siphons. We are fast approaching 1000 bell siphons made here and shipped worldwide. Lots of folks getting into AP!

Okay, really appreciate the responses.  My system is a "standard" IBC tote system with expanded clay media, white plastic piping, no brass or copper anywhere except the hose connection to the outside water pipe and you are correct, the water changes I have done were in response to a high PH from mis understanding the amount of c and p hydroxide to add to bring the PH up and what looked like a very high nitrate level. Color matching is not easy for me for some reason and at that time, nitrate appeared to be the darkest on the chart so the answer is yes, I have only changed water when the chemistry was off and I let the water(city water is chlorinated) sit in 5 gal pails for a day before adding so it takes a few days to get it done.  I thought the larger fish were attacking the smaller ones but the largest one died last week.  Any suggestions would be much appreciated. 

And I am using a flood and drain system, running 15 minutes every hour, compost worms in the GB.  Was aerating on the timer but changed to 24 hours last week to see if that would help.  Originally, couldnt get the bell siphon I had to work so just using a piece of white pipe cut at an angle and positioned inside a piece of black plastic slotted "pipe" at a height to keep the input water from overflowing the GB.

Hi Mike.  When you sat standard IBC set-up, you one GB and one FT made from one IBC?  I ask because I have only lost fish (Koi and Goldfish) when I had a combination of low pH (~6) and low tank water volume.  Too much stress for the fish is what I figured.  Don't have much else to suggest other than I use Potassium Bicarbonate and Calcium Carbonate (egg shells) to adjust my pH once in a while.  I like the buffering action these provide and find adjustments are not needed nearly as much.

Arthur,  Thanks for the reply and yes it is one GB and one FT from an IBC and I have never taken out more than 25%, not sure if that is too much at one time.  Over the past year have gone months with no fish loss and just not sure what I am doing wrong, but will keep trying.  Lots to learn!!  I would love to expand the system but my confidence is not high right now. Attaching pic of my greenhouse, the AP system and the water, hoping someone might have an idea. Thanks again to all for your assistance.  IMG_3718%5B1%5D.JPGIMG_3723%5B1%5D.JPGIMG_3721%5B1%5D.JPG

Hey Mike, looking at your system water I see a few things that would bother me. First the suds bubbles on the surface. Something in the water chemistry is causing that. Might be a clue. Probably a slow concentration that has snuck up on you. Also, the biggest problem with not having a sump (you are of course using the fish tank as the sump) is that the surface builds up with oils (could be the culprit) and lots of other debris. I realize you are running forgiving fish (my trout would leave home if their water looked like that lol) but surface oils will even kill mosquito larvae in a marsh. That's how they control them after all. I would simply overflow your FT for a spell to get rid of any surface build up.

I would love to see you make an slo with surface skimmer (see my blog on here) and drain to a sump where the pump would pump from there to the GB. That also allows the FT to stay at a full and constant level as well as keep the FT water much cleaner as any oils get trapped in the sump and all you do is overflow the sump now and then and voila they are gone. Some work involved I realize but keep in mind that the system you have is considered a basic starter system. There is tremendous room for improvement with the GB over the FT method. Also keep in mind that as soon as a fish dies in the system there is a big build up of said oils and they are smelly and toxic.

Speaking of that, how does your water smell? That can tell you a great deal as our noses are very tuned in to any anaerobic bacteria odors. Everyone should get used to how your system should smell when all is good. We know immediately when a fish has died by the system water smell BUT our system is designed to get rid of the rancid oils and tainted water as soon as we remove the dead fish and that ain't often.

Jim, I remember you telling me about smell in a prior communication and to stop using the add on water conditioning chemicals that I was using which I did.  Since then I have always been sensitive to the smell of the tank and honestly, even now it has not smelled bad. Also overflowed the tank for about a half hour just now, cleaned the pump and pipes, left the aerator on and lots of particulate came floating up, looks like the water is full of it and I kept scooping.   Attaching a picture of what is in the water(old food, poop????).  For some reason the fish stayed near the top and I saw one of them had no tail fins, looked like it was attacked. I agree with you on the sump but in the short term is there something I can do to clean the water?  Will do a complete chem check in the morning.  As always, appreciate your advice.IMG_3724%5B1%5D.JPG

Mike, I made a bottom suction tool with some 3/4" pvc attached to a 25' hose and I just use it as a siphon to suck thre crud off the bottom, especially in the IBC corners where solids will collect. Works like a charm but due to my SLO I only have to do this about once or twice a year. Like a pool vac.

Here are a couple of pics:

Mike,  Do you have a media guard around your drain in the GB?  Do you use any chemicals on the plants?  I agree with Jim that your water looks dirtier than I would expect.  I have a similar set-up (GB over FT using siphon and river rock) and my water is crystal clear for over a year now.  I need to flush my pipes and wash my sides, but I haven't even done that since it was set-up over a year ago.  Only other thing I can think is you may be over feeding your fish.

Arthur, don't over clean your tank of course. That is healthy bacteria in most cases. Just remove any solids buildup on the bottom.

Jim, I was noticing your tank in the pic. The only "unclean" area in my tank is a slight algae line just above the water line. Couldn't clean it better myself. Probably because I have so many fish. They actually clean the walls up to an inch above the water. I can't see the bottom because of the iron chelate I added.

I believe overfeeding was in the mix but whatever caused the bubbles on top of the water I think was the issue.  I dont use any chemicals anywhere except to adjust PH from time to time so not sure what happened.  I overflowed the tank twice for a considerable time and let water drain from the bottom, cleaned the pump and pipes, changed the air stone and the water bubbles except for the air stone seem to be gone.  3 fish have survived. The chemistry is showing a PH of 6.9, 0 Nitrites and Ammonia, 20-40 ppm Nitrates.  Everything I read says to see how much food the fish will eat in 3-5 minutes but my fish never eat all at once even if I just put in a little.  Some would come to the area I am putting the food and some would stay in different areas of the tank and it didnt seem to be related to the size of the fish.  Down to 3, a small, medium and large.  Very upsetting especially since I am not sure of what happened.   I have a larger black plastic pipe with slots in it(not sure of the name) around the drain pipe and there dont appear to be any large pieces of anything on the floor of the FT.  I will post a picture tomorrow of the water and again thanks to all for your responses.  Jim convinced me earlier this year to stop "micromanaging" the process and it has been fine for many months.  

Hey Jeff, it might be the species of fish. Some will dine on algae and some don't. Our trout don't seem all that interested while our cats and BGs are more prone to eat it. That's over 3 yrs of buildup as I try never to outguess nature, lol.

Mike, don't forget that bacteria will create organic compounds that are who knows what. Something went awry. I check almost daily for water level in my sump, water appearance, water odor, and surface appearance (from scum, oils, to dead fish). Takes about 15 seconds when I do the morning feeding. I have been planning a vid of the daily walk through for some time for what it's worth. It could even be your brand of feed as I ponder this. I use Cargill's Trophy Feed from TSC and it has been great. There will always be something to overcome I'm afraid. In a closed system like AP there are things that will sneak up on us from time to time due to concentrations that start out harmless. The larger the system the less likely the harm I would imagine. Our 2500g is very forgiving.

Hello there, need tilapia?

www.tilapiastore.com

Has any one tried a partial buried GH?  I live is the Colorado mountains - 8,500ft. winters can be long, up to 5 months - we had 3ft snow on Apr 18th. GH needs to be 12ft X 30 for a 2-275g IBC fish tank system, sump, and 3-3ft X 8ft GB, 1-3ft X 10ft DT, and 8-25g barrel GBs. I am thinking I could raise tilapia/bass in the summer months and trout in the winter months. Ground temps are 55 degrees year round. I know the seasonal plant selection will be tricky based on warm temps in the summer and cold temps in the winter.

Bernie, I admire your enthusiasm. I covered the lower half of my GH winter and summer so a half in-the-ground GH makes sense with the extreme seasons you have there. I would offer this advise though, if you're just starting out I would go small and expand as I got a better grasp of my ultimate design. I started with a 8x10 GH and expanded to an 8x22. The system in my icon was my ultimate design but Isettled for half that. Wish I had widened the GH though.

Bernie, Just as an example here is our layout. If you had a good bank to dig into on the North side you could put the fish room in there. We were backwards to that so it was not an option. We raise Trout year round with no problem and so can you. Add lots of Solar heat storage like black 55g drums but remember that the larger the system the slower the temp changes. Ours is about 2400g and I heat in the Winter with solar collector that heats the system water on auto pilot and a woodstove of my own design that also heats the water and the air.

Jim, Is that composter a new addition? I don't remember seeing it in your design before. If it is why have you been keeping it a secret from us lol.

Jim, what plants are you using to match the cool temps for growing salmon?  What about pH?

Hey guys, I have not built the composter yet but had one for years and I sell the plans on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/151229959852

I grow the usual plants. Summer plants in warmer weather and kale, brocs, etc, etc in Winter. PH needs to be close to neutral for fingerlings but as they grow trout tend to be pretty bullet proof between 45 and 70F water temp. I now add about 1/2 cup of wood ashes at each GB inlet the day before we hit the hatchery.

The composter and the hot tub are next btw. Everything else is done and operating for over 4 years now. My how the time flies. We have built and shipped over 1500 bell siphons now worldwide.

Looks like a lot of compost. I have compost in 4 IBC frames. I planted some potatoes in one a few weeks ago and they're coming up just fine. Not sure how I'll use all the compost.

My composter is ground garbage, leaves, etc going in one end and screened compost coming out the other end. It takes 2 weeks from raw input to beautiful black sweet smelling finished compost comes out the other end. It reaches a good 170F during that time and it is a continuous producer as opposed to a batch system. Here's an old pic:

I would assume it would also help heat your greenhouse. Might have to make my GH bigger just to have one lol. Is it operational now?

Don't even have the new one built yet. That pic is from when we lived on Cape Cod. The next one will be PVC 55g drums as steel won't last more than a couple of years. It is on my To DO list and my wife claims it was the best compost she ever used so she is very behind getting another built (which never hurts, lol). Prisons have been a big fan of the plans all these years strangely enough. You only rotate it a couple turns about every other day so the gearhead motor could easily be replaced with a hand crank.

It's just amazing to me that you can make complete compost in 2 weeks. Even with turning and lots of worms it takes me a year.

Which is why I have 4 bins.

No worms involved, lol. Just trillions and trillions of thermophile bacteria. That's why it hits 170- 180F. No seeds or anaerobes survive. It is very similar to making yogurt in that the only bacteria left are the good guys. Cold compost is full of weed seeds, bugs, veggie seeds, etc. and can be a real PITA. It does require grinding and inoculating with either the unavoidable balls that are screened out or starter bacteria to start off although the grinding is the real trick as it increases surface area for the bacteria to attack and thrive on and explode in numbers literally overnight.

Fascinating. Do you add the bacteria? Can you just run it on an as needed basis or does it need to run continuously?

A few turns about every other day. Like I said it could use a hand crank rather than the fancy gearhead motor and trip switches I used.

Can an observation window be put in an IBC Tote?  If so, where can I get a couple of window kits.

Check out this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGj-qqxSUMc

Thanks Jeff

The video is very good - but I can't find the source for the window.  Also, does the IBC Tote have enough flat space to mount a window. I am using the 330g version.

Most IBCs have flat sides. This is the source for the kit theaquaponicsource.com. But you can build it yourself. Go to your local big box store and get a piece of 3/16" Lexan polycarbonate, some 5/16" stainless steel bolts, nuts and washers. Cut to the size you want and follow the video. You just have to drill the holes in the Lexan first. Don't forget the silicone. If I ever drain my tank I'll put one in mine.

Hi

I am looking for a source of IBCs in MI, so far have only found ones with caustic residuals, no food safe ones. I am in Harrisville, on Huron, between Saginaw and Alpena. Ideally I would like six.

Yaacov

  Check with any dairy or farm supply source, if you are willing to drive a bit, check out any dairy farms.  Here in Wisconsin, most dairy farms store their calves colostrum supplement in IBC totes.  I acquired 20 for 20$ each last year.

Thanks Leo

I am right in the middle of a dairy area, I will be checking the farms out, will let you know how I make out.