Green Acre Aquaponics

Thanks for the invite Gina, I look forward to picking everyone's brain when I get my system setup.

peace all....

Thanks for the invite. I am excited to see that you are growing and adapting your farm. Nice newsletter. Probably best to comunicate here than by email. Good luck. I look forward to visiting you guys. Take care and thanks for all the advice.

Gina:  Do you still have the white trough liner material and the Dow blue board for sale.  I just aquired 3,  250 gallon tanks  and planning 1,008 sq.ft. green house expansion, with 20 additional grow troughs.  I will have had my fish 4 months this week.  Most have more than doubled in size.  Hope they will start reproducing shortly. 

Gina:  Have you reached any conclusions about your two different systems?

After my major fish kill resulting from accumulation of excess fish food in the bottom of my tanks,  I have installed a 70GPH Fountain pump, purchased from Lowes at about $20 each.  I suspend the pump 1/2 way into the water level.  Only half way so a mishap can not suck the tank dry. This pump has a 1/2 inch discharge I connected to 1/2 inch tubing with the discharge into my grow troughs along with the gravity fed water from my tanks. I run these pumps (and now) 24/7.  This means over 1,600 gallons of water a day is being pulled through the spong filter on the pump. This requires cleaning the pump & filter every two to 3 days..... But my water is now cystal clear!

As we use to say in the Marine Corps  "ADAPT AND OVERCOME !"

Gina:  Whereas you are about 40 miles north of you,  what are you doing to keep your plants from freezing on nights like last night.  Temp. here got down to 27 degrees for 3 hours or more. I enclosed my 10ft x 20ft growing area with tarps. Where as my discharge water to my grow troughs is over 70 degrees, I thought I would be ok.  Carrots and red onions survived with no damage.  I lost all but one tomatoe plant and 1 green pepper plant. I lost all my lettuce and egg plants.

I have made some cheap tank heaters using 1500 watt, 110 volt water heater elements.  Originally I had enclosed them in 1 inch PVC pipe.  Only to find it melted the PVC and burned out the element.   I now just submerge the unprotected heating elements.  You have to watch that you dont overload the circut and trip the breaker. 

Dave we suffered some losses too.  It was down to15 or 16 degrees here but we were below freezing for nearly 12 hours and actually colder and colder longer than we anticipated.  Tonight we will run a diesel powered torpedo heater for 15 minutes every two hours in both the greenhouse and seedling structure.  This will keep the temps inside at or above freezing.  We should have done it last night but did not.  A traditional farmer friend of  mine called today to say she lost all of her crops.  Her farm is 5 minutes from mine.  Its too cold for too long here!  She even lost winter crops that otherwise would tolerate a light freeze. Gotta go.  Time to go fire up the heater!

Glad to hear you figured out a solution on your fish loss.  

Thanks for the response.  I had one of those torpedo heaters up north.  I have a thermostat you can pug the heater into.  I got mine from Northern Tool on line. It is suppose to warm back up but I can see I need to think about putting up my enclosure for that car port. I have blue prints on order for a 24 ft x 42ft green house. Looks like FL is not as warm as we would like to believe.

so sorry to hear about your losses!

Thanks David.  We never expected a loss from freezing!  What's crazy, not long ago I read in an aquaponic newsletter that that a guy in Florida has demonstrated that you can do aquaponics commercially in Florida without a big, expensive greenhouse structure.  That was a gross misgeneralization that can really spell disaster if someone heeds that advice.  Perhaps in South Florida or along the coast line where temps are more mild.  However from Tampa and northward one would be in trouble without some kind of structure for protection as even Tampa was in the 20's for 6-8 hours.  Frost blankets would have done nothing as we weren't protecting crops from frost but from literally freezing!  Seedlings were ice cubes of coir!  We incredibly had frozen heads of lettuce that survived but others that looked like they had been in a too cold refrigerator and froze and burned.  This was a hard freeze for an extended period of time.  If we didn't have our structure, we would have lost everything just like my traditional farming friend. This was probably a little rare because of the duration of the freeze however I guarantee we will have minimally a dozen more nights with temps like that through the next 3 months.  

Florida's climate has shifted drastically.  We don't get the spring and summer daily rains like we used to and our winters are much more harsh.  People think I am crazy when I say it gets cold here.  I had to break an inch of ice on my horse trough yesterday morning and we have had pipes freeze if every spigot outside wasn't left open to drip.  Its 28 right now.  Got to go bundle up and go outside!  

Up north, we hit 9 the other night.  Hope that makes you feel warmer. 

I do believe it's possible to do this without a greenhouse here, However, you are restricted to using seasonally appropriate plants and climate appropriate fish.  (My water is down into the 40's now so the Catfish and Bluegill are not eating much but they are still alive.  And the plants have slowed down.)

Now your micro climate will play a big roll, How hard the freeze falls on your area.  I was out chipping ice off the Kale and Sorrel yesterday morning.  The only plants I LOST were tomatoes, Peppers, and some of the Nasturtiums (some were down but others 3 feet away were fine? go figure.)  and of course the bananas and papaya.  I suppose had there been Basil outdoors I would have lots it.  (I think moisture levels played a roll in my lack of losses because it was a hard enough freeze here that I would have expected more damage to the lettuce but since none of my lettuce is sitting down in a raft of water but rather vertically in a tower and only getting a trickle of water I think that may have helped protect them.)

Anyway, around inland central Florida there are plenty of strange pockets of micro-climates So anyone planning to grow commercially in any manner better spend some time (would take several years and even then it's a small sample) getting to know their micro climate at their intended location before they decide if they can do it without a greenhouse.

I"m Further North than Green Acre but I don't know if it has something to do with my particular position on the ridge but it was not so cold for so long here.  I did have ice in a 50 gallon water tank but not so think and it melted before 10 am.

Heck, I was able to see a distinct difference between plants that were behind the house as opposed to plants in front.  I expect the plants in back didn't get the benefit of the warmth from the sun warming the concrete blocks the way the plants in front benefit.

Papaya.. I started several plants last summer. one is doing very good, has fruit.

It seems to me that these are very susceptible to the cold   <40f

Am I correct?

Mine actually came back from some cold in the past but a hard freeze while they are getting too much water will kill em and frost does them damage.

I had one in a pot that I was planning to protect from freezes but it didn't get covered so I fear I killed it.

I completely agree that there are a lot of microclimates and major differences in climate in different parts of Florida.  We all know that the thermal mass of water holds heat very well and that includes all of those ponds, lakes, retention ponds, and even sewer pipes.  But most importantly, it includes those huge blue parts on the map that we call Oceans.

I currently have a completely outside system and my system water temperature at 9:00am today is 58 degrees.  Everything that holds water is insulated and covered.  The outside temperatures dropped into the 30s for the last three nights, but daytime sun and warmth kept the water temperature up. The temperatures are much warmer near the coast than in Central Florida.  

Another consideration is the type of system.  A flood and drain system will lose heat much faster than a raft system, because of the greater surface area of the water contacting the air.  

Yep, a flood and drain media bed is a really powerful heat exchanger.  My systems are all media based and mostly flood and drain so my water temps dropped quickly when the cool off happened.

Wes here we are on the east coast of fla about 5 miles from the beach and we had more frost this thurs morning than wed morning. I covered my outside grow beds with tarps and our green house was hunkered down, we made out with no losses so far. I keep the water warm with on of those homemade 110 watt 1200 volt water heater elements and my water temps have been staying at 68 degrees steady so far so good.

Oh I forgot to mention we are in Vero Beach so we are just about exactly in the middle of the state right on east coast so temps werent as bad as they could of been.

I agree with your explanations TCLynx and David Lindemann. We have insulated our tanks and have seen temps in the low to mid 50s. Lost the basil and a lot of the summer crops. We have covered the tomatoes (although probably a little bit late...we will see in a day or two), and a few other plants. The Papayas remain uncovered and so far seem OK as do the Banana plants. The both of these, you usually see the damage a few days after the warming trend begins.

A greenhouse, actually a "hoop house" would certainly be a wonderful addition to any system and yes essential for any commercial growing. There you have too much to lose.

God bless

My little outdoor system is not insulated at all and completely exposed to the elements.  In order to slow down heat loss at night I take the cap off my siphon to convert my flood and drain bed to a constant flow.  Every little bit helps, right?

I definitely agree with the microclimate theory.  We happen to be in one of those cold pockets.  Perhaps it has something to do with elevation.  We definitely don't have that nice feature that Dave has!  Certainly another plus to living by the beach, huh?!   I just talked to my farmer friend again that lost 90% of her crops.  Her family has been farming in Brooksville for close to 80 years and she has said that the last 4 winters have had harsher freezes then any she can remember.

I'm certainly not saying that just any aquaponics here requires a structure, however I think  growing commercially in this area or farther north would be a huge risk without one.  We were again below freezing last night for 8 hours, but heating the structure made a huge difference.    While it was 25 outside, we kept it above 32 inside.  We also have a new design that is very economical to build and is actually integrated into the system.  Simple and feasible to do and it affords plenty of insurance against loss provided you heat on very cold nights!  We won't make that mistake again.  

It just makes sense to exercise caution when making statements or generalizations about growing commercially in Florida relative to weather conditions as Florida has some radically different climates depending on the location in the state.   It stretches close to 500 miles from south to north with a 28 degree temperature differential in winter lows and places that never even come close to 32.    

Dave, how are your Tilapia doing at 58?  A bit sluggish, I bet!  We are actually going to transition to Koi and Catfish.  Being we are not marketing our Tilapia, it doesn't make sense to cultivate a fish that is not cold tolerant and risks mortalities at 55 and below and as a result just incur a cost from having to heat the water.  

TC and Sahib, know of any good bulk suppliers on either?  Thanks!

The cool thing with koi is that they're pretty to look at....if giving tours is part of your biz model then building a beautiful koi pond instead of a tank might be something to consider!

Koi

Unless you are particular about "quality" re Hobby & possible re-sales, I would try to get "peanuts"...Koi fingerlings that are about to be "culled". that way, not only will you save a lot of money but you will also feel good that you saved a few from the doom & gloom :-)

You can buy these from any local Koi Breeder (save shipping), or give the folks at Blackwater Koi a call. They know me, the Guy who does Aquaponics. You can usually get 200 or so for $1+ (2inch or so). They grow very quickly.

http://www.koisale.com/

For Channel Catfish & Blue Gil (very good fish too for our climate), they are available from Florida Fish Farms (usually cost $30 per 100 : 2 inch or so)

http://www.floridafishfarms.com/

They also sell Koi and may have Koi they are going to cull (in breeding season).

God bless,

Sorry to hear of the gardeners’ losses in FL, everyone. Gina, in your research, have you found Catfish and Koi do well in the same tank? Do these breeds mix without issue?

Yep Florida Fish Farms is the good local place for Catfish, blue gill, bass etc.  They even sell koi I believe.

Don't bother with their web site, it's been kinda defunked for ages now.  Do a google search for them and call their phone number (keep calling since they are usually not quick to get back to phone messages either.)

Great thing about the local fish is they keep eating at cooler temps than the Tilapia.  Though when the water gets below 55 degrees I've quit feeding now and they probably won't get fed again here for a week.  Nutrients will drop here for a bit but not as bad as with tilapia which quit eating even sooner.

I actually haven't fed the fish since the water temperature was below 60 degrees.  Above 60 degrees(Tues afternoon) I was cautious about feeding, but the tilapia seemed to be happy and eating at a good rate, pretty consistent for the recent temperatures, albeit not like ravenous pigs when the water temperature was 80 degrees.  

I also have an open water pool that I have been using as a green water tank with tilapia.  Last time I took a few random scoops with the net, I found a few 1 inch babies, so I know that breeding has occurred.  This pool is in direct sun and I have not insulated or even covered it and there are 40 hand size tilapia in there. The water temperature was 48 degrees this morning, so I am worried about finding a few floaters in the next few weeks.  Since it is about 1500 gallons, I think there may be some warm spots in the middle near the ground and the surface temperature may be colder than the bottom.  

Alas, found the answer to my Koi-Catfish compatibility question here, in case other members are interested: http://aquaponicscommunity.com/group/koigrowers?

Thanks for the resources Sahib and TC.  Just might have to go with rescuing some  from the doom and gloom Sahib!  You had to know I would be a sucker for that! ;-)

Another place in FL (though up in North FL) is Paul's Fish Farm and I think they may do breeding and hatching as well with catfish but I've never purchased from them since Florida Fish Farms is so close.

Question.... I lost many plants to a recent frost.  These were mature fruit producing plants. Now I have had frost damage to several flowing bushes here in FL.  I have cut them back to below the frost damage and they have recovered and come back.

So I have don just that with 66 green bell pepper plants and about 30 tomato plants (not yet bearing  tomatoes or blosoms).

Now here is the question... Has anyone of you tried this? and what were your results?   I am trying to avoide 6 to 8 weeks required to start new plants from seed. 

Hi Gina:  My fish are doing well.   All said and done about 35 to 40 survivors.  I have spread them over 3 tanks.  I have 300 watt tank heaters going 24/7 in all tanks.  I also created my own 1500 watt 110 volt heater from hot water tank elements.  I had tried to enclose it in PVC but heat melted the PVC and burned out the element.  Because of the 1500 watt draw on electric I do not run it unattended as I am opperating on a 40 AMP electrical system and it can and has tripped the breaker.but it will raise water temp 2 degrees an hour.  I have insulated my fish tanks with standard R-13 fiber glass building insulation including the tank covers.  Water temp. for the most part runs 76 to 82 degrees.

I am in an expansion phase. Looking to add 20 more grow troughs in 2012. I intend to enclose 5  250 polly fish tanks , grow troughs and 5 sumps in a 24 x 42 green house.  I will heat it with kero fired torpedo heater.  Note.. I have purchased a seperate electric plug in thermostat from Norther Tool & Equipment..

I was under the illusion my 70 to 80 degree water in my 4 grow troughs enclosed in my 10 x 20 ft portable car port would keep my plants frost free.   

If the plants manage to grow back, you will be in business, if they are just too far gone, well not much lost in pruning and seeing what they do.

Water heaters... I find 300 watt tank heater running 24/7 in my insulated tank will hold water temp in the high 70s low 80s. I have created 1500 watt 110 volt water heater out of a replacement element for regular hot water heater (about $10) add a heavy duty electrical cord (cost $8) At first I enclosed the element in PVC piping.  However heat melted the PVC and burned out the element.  So now I leave the element totally exposed to the water.  Element MUST BE SUBMERGED or it will burn up. I only run these 1500 watt heaters when I am there.  Don't want to take a chance of over heating or tripping a breaker.

As some of you know, we here in west central FL, about 22 sweeks ago, got hit hard with a couple nights of below freezing weather. I was one of those.  My root crops, carrots and onions were not damaged however I lost tomatoes, green peppers and egg plants. I cut those damaged plants back to where the stem were still green.  Many of my tomato plants responded well and have developed new shoots. Some of the green peppers are starting to put out new leaves.  I am hoping the egg plants will do like wise. I have since reseeded and just put new sprouting tomato plants in one of my floats.  I have since purchased a 10,600 btu kerosene heater that will run for 15 hours on 1.2 gallons of fuel.  The claim is it will heat 1,000 sq.ft.  so it should work well in my 10x20ft portable car port once the enclosure is installed.

Last post should read 2 weeks ago....not 22 sweeks ago

Check out my latest GAO blog!  Cold Weather Woes at http://www.greenacreorganics.biz/blogfeed/

Dave, You may want to be able to move those new tomato seedlings inside for protection until about late March.  Now is the time to start them, but the cold can quickly do them in.  

Genia:  In my area we have about 6 weeks of winter left.  My plan is if temp is to fall under 40 degrees, cover the plants  and insert a drop light with 100 watt bulb under the cover.  I have attached 1x2in. support frames with plastic chicken wire to my grow troughs.  They lend well to "tenting" my grow beds.

Question... are you heating your fish tanks?  And if so what are you doing.  Because of my fish loss I am looking to get my fish to start reproducing.  Did you have any success in your fish breeding venture? 

I spoted a post by Dave Story saying he was growing papaya.  Where did you get your seeds or plants?  Is anyone else growing anything that might be considered "different".  I am raising "dragon fruit" (grown in dirt) I am thinking of switching to growing in media.