IBC Aquaponics

On the other hand if you are going to raise Trout or Tilapia you can just leave them in. They will disappear. You can count on it

Hello Again all.

Out of curiosity what does everyone put on the bottom of the Totes?  I put river rock, and I wonder if that is a mistake since it collects all the waste even though the siphon is at the bottom into a swirl filter. That could be why my nitrites are remaining high.

Steve....  Happy Mothers Day to all the Moms out there.

Steve-

  That is the main reason I don't put anything on the bottom of my totes.  The fish do just fine without it.

  If you are wanting to get into breeding your own fish, you may want a designated tote just for this pourpose and then many fish build Redds, a shallow depression in the botton of the tank. 

  This will have to be designed with a different type of drainage system, exiting out the side of the tank so as not to disturbe the Redd.  Along with its own grow bed / filter.

I have a rocket stove heat system that I have used to keep a water tank at 75 degrees, even though it was completely exposed to -15 degrees and a steady windchill.  My secondary burn chamber burns the production gas, but by the time the exhaust is halfway down the pipe the BTUs have all but completely transferred to the thermal mass collector (cob bench). 

I can't think of any application that would allow for exposed ducting like the one I see in the photo.  I transfer every bit of heat to thermal mass (cob bench upon which the tank is situated) and the minimum thickness is eight inches from any burnable surface.  The system works well, and the final exhaust is about 80 degrees F., with only a puff of water vapor to even indicate that anything is leaving the system at all.  That said, exposed ducting is nothing but a fire waiting to happen.  Additionally, if production gasses are not completely and efficiently burned before they reach the exhaust ducting, as the duct heats up (and the BTUs do not transfer into fireproof thermal mass), they can become explosive inside the duct.  Firebomb.  If that doesn't happen, there is still the poisonous gasses that could escape an unsealed system right into the closed environment of the greenhouse.

Steve,

Don't put anything on the bottom of the totes.  You want free-flow without interruption.  Algae and fish are about all one wants to see in the tank.  Yes, I said algae.  This is a sure sign of environmental health.  I can't tell you the thousands of dollars I just flushed down the drain by keeping the system too "clean."  I had to learn that algae is not dirt. 

If it's in the gravel, it means that you are allowing your water level to go above the "grade."  In other words, you need at least an inch of airspace at the top layer of your beds, and that space should never be wet. 

Algae on the inside of the greenhouse walls means that you have no air circulation at all.  Bad environmental standard for plant health, not to mention yours.  Get some ventilation going.  Then buy a squeegee and keep your walls clear. 

Algae on the floor, again, system way to wet.  You need ventilation.

Steve, IF you are referring to your FT(s) and not the GBs and I assume you are, we do not put any gravel in the bottom of the FTs unlike an aquarium where said gravel is part of the bio-filter system.

Many of us who are NOT running commercial systems DO put odd sections of 3" and 4" pipes and elbows simply to give our fish a life. They love playing in the pipes and IMHO deserve to have some fun. We do the same for our goats, sheep and chickens in the form of rock piles, etc. even tho they are also destined for the freezer as they too deserve a life.

Due to our unique SLO design where the rising air draws the solids to the outflow pipes (see my pics HERE) our FTs stay very clear of waste on the bottom but when we do use the siphon hose to clean the bottom like before a harvest (no not the algae off the sides ever) the pipes are easy to move out of the way. River stone on the bottom would become a problem. When you do a cleaning I suggest you capture the waste water and use it in your dirt garden (assuming you have one) and not flush it down the drain. Your garden will thank you.

I don't believe you mentioned any algae on the GH walls. That would be a whole nuther problem. I think there is some misunderstandings of your question here.

Phillip, while wood gasifier stoves (often referred to as Syn-gas generators) are best and most efficient (rocket stoves being just one of them) I would not refer to wood gases going up the flue as "firebombs". If that were the case humans would have blown themselves up long ago. The real problem is creosote build up and that will burn at 1800 to 2000F once caught on fire, and any flammables better be well out of the way for sure. I have been studying and building and using wood gasifiers (a Ben Franklin invention) for over 40 years (since the early 70's) and other than experiments burning sawdust (that was a hoot), I have never seen any explosions. Perhaps a bit over stated there on your part.

My problem with "rocket stoves" is the extremely small batches of wood that must be hand fed constantly during operation. Fine for a small GH but my GH and 2000+gals of system water, need some serious BTUs and must run on its own for 12hrs at a time heating air AND water and I have yet to see a "rocket stove" design that would begin to do that. There are many, many gasifier designs that will however. Unfortunately most are in the $10-12k realm and so we build our own for about 200.00 and a couple of wknds worth of sweat (read FUN).

Jim,  Thank You for the info on the tote FT bottom.  I believe that is my problem since I put a inch or so river pebbles on the bottom of the tote and obviously the waste can be taken out with the siphon tube into the swirl filter.

I will start lowering the water , take out the rocks and refill with clean well water today..

Thanks agn.

Steve, one more thing that I believe caused the confusion and I quote you:"even though the siphon is at the bottom" ?? Not sure what u meant here. There should NEVER be any sort of siphon when referring to the FT. If anything fails your FT water will all siphon out and BELIEVE ME things like power will fail, and you will loose all your fish. (another reason I went with 5 FT that are all independent of each other. Safety in numbers and BU systems like that T are crucial to avoid disasters.)

I use a"T" at the top exit to avoid any possibility of siphoning. I also cut a 3/8" slot right at the top water level on the back side of said T to act as a skimmer (like a pool skimmer) and that allows any floater, oils, etc. to exit the FT off the surface. Sinkers are not the only thing that builds up in the FTs. You almost have to set it up first and then mark the exact operational water level to determine the location of that skimmer slot.

Also the top opening of the T acts as a safety should something clog up down below. The water only has to rise a couple of inches before it again flows over the top of the T. That has been a saving grace more than once while we got the slots right on the SLO system. In the beginning they were too small and would clog up with waste. No longer. But at least the water never rose over the top of the IBC thanks to that T overflow BU. Nothing like coming in in the morning and finding you have lost 2000 gal of water overnite

Hi aquaman, I do sell a cheap cd with my stove plans at our Ebay store under "fiskfarm" along with AP parts but I also have a bunch of pics of my latest build on here and a piss poor but educational slide show also on here of that GH stove build. (I have next to no patience with trying to video when I am in a build mode so slide shows are about it for now) I am currently building a newer version that should be done in the Fall as we need it to heat this monster of a house we bought and are in the process of finishing. That will have about 600g of water storage. The more I build and observe on gasifiers (and especially with all the new gasifier boilers and stoves out there nowadays) the more I realize just how many ways one can skin this cat. Of course water heat storage is always best and in AP we have water!

Jim,,,    I have a 1 1/2 pipe going to the bottom  of the FT with holes at the bottom in a cap.  At the top I have a T with the top open to take the overflow and then t to a swirl filter and then to a holding tank, to the grow beds and back to the FT. I have 2 grow beds that empty  into the FT.  I also have another pipe with holes a little higher than the siphon into the holding tank in case the siphon can't handle both G B  dump at the same time.  Hopefully I did everything right.  If not, I would appreciate your comments.

JIm   must leave now, maybe later I can e-mail u a picture

Jim,

I've worked forest fires and when a tall, hollow tree catches, and has an opening at the bottom, the effect is dramatic.  We call them "fire bombs" because they do actually explode.  I duct, nicely coated as you describe with creosote and other fuels, has a nice opening at the bottom, and when it starts it can become one of those "fire bombs."  Sorry if my example was vague.

The tank I heat is 3ft wide by 20ft long by 4ft high.  It sits upon a thermal mass 3ft wide by 20ft long by 2ft high.  The duck runs right through the center of the mass for the entire length of the tank and exits out the back of the greenhouse.  I can put my hand in the exhaust duct at the end and there is heat, but not much.  The exhaust is mostly steam, but it still contains enough gas to poison the air.  I load my rocket once in the morning and once in the evening.  It takes about an hour to heat ten inches of thermal mass, so by the time the batch is fully burned, the entire mass is holding the BTUs.  I close the lid and don't have to tend the system.  The heat then transfers into the tank, and the surrounding environment (greenhouse beds).  My water temperature will rise and fall, but my tilapia adapted and reproduce.  I was even delighted by a spawn of Bluegill, which I was told wouldn't happen in my small system.  Of course, the parents devoured them all within seconds, but it was fun to watch anyway.

The system must be designed properly.  Size is important.  I didn't actually design mine at all.  I intended the thermal bench as a plant warmer, but it was too much for the plants.  I needed a bigger sink, so in went the tank. 

aquaman, no gen, just efficient heat. Syngas gens for making power are another great topic tho. I prefer hydro and will tap into our streams 35' drop for that. Are you looking to make electricity from yours?

Wood gasifiers are the new rage among wood stove manufacturers. But, syn-gas is syn-gas whether you burn it in the stove as in Phillip's rocket stove or the large new gasifier outdoor boilers.

@Phillip, got it. Never saw it happen in a chimney as the top is open and too vented. I think you will find that gases in a tree that explodes are really captive in there and might even build up pressure. I have had some logs in a stove burst with a pretty good bang, but so far in 10's of thousands of hours of burning wood I have never had a stove pipe blow. So far

I've, along with some others on here, made some very impressive Browns gas explosions tho. I still plan to harness the wind and store the fuel in the form of Brown's gas one of these days. Great for cooking and even cutting stone. Sun, wind and water can equal a very big boom. Never saw anyone do it that way before. Regardless of efficiency, it is a way other than batteries to store energy and when you burn it the only thing that is produced is water. Very impressive, the making of water. Just ask my neighbors in Maine where we used to play with it. Still have 2 of the better HHO gens we made.

Whoops, thread jack.

Sounds like a great Rocket stove set up you have there. Pics? Lots of folks on here would like to know more I am sure.

Oh yea it is super dangerous. I have not other than gallon bottles but I have put some thought into it. An inverted barrel floating inside a barrel with the ss gen under the inner barrel so that if it should blow it will head straight up is about the only way and I intend to ignite that to see if it blows straight up rather than in every direction. Not advocating anyone try it. It is for some reason very stable right up until it is ignited by a spark. Then you better be out of range when it turns back into water. We ignite it with a HV unit and a 100' extension cord. In a barrel it might just blow out the neighborhood windows

Anyhow, my nephew works for a company on the W coast that produces syngas gens on a pallet. They also sell their plans. I will try and find it but I mentioned in a thread on here so I may just search here. Got it GEK. (Live link)

Pretty sweet!

Here is a direct link to the page you want: GEK

Hey Folks.   I am getting a lot of algae in my tote.  How do I control.  Should I remove?  Green Water.     Stop feeding? 

Thanks

Steve

Depending on the amount of algae you have, you can block off the light to the tote.  If you have a green slime algae, you need to do a water change and also block off the light to the tank.  Use a cover that blocks light but allows for air exchange easily, 75 - 90% shadecloth works great for the top.  The sides are a different matter.  You can use 1" Styrofoam insulation for this or better yet, use the reflective foam insulation.

Hey Steve. This seems to be a common start up phase. We were hit hard as well way back when during our late cycling period. My answer was a trip to Wally World and a 10.00 bag of poly fil which I used to fill a 30 gal barrel. I fed it bypass water only into a slotted (on the chop saw) 1 1/2" pipe in the center of the lid and exit at the side T and right back in to the below grade sump. It trapped all the little buggers  and it cleared up the water in less than 2 days. Here is an old picture, pretty simple and I still have it online 2 years later: (I also run an air stone in it but just as a precaution against any anaerobes as I don't run much water thru it depending on what else needs flow)

Keep in mind I am running fresh sump water only with no fish waste as the sump is after the media grow beds. Fish waste solids could make quite a mess in there as it will trap everything.

I had a similar problem when I first started. The sides of the tank were dark from the algae. I bought an algae eating fish and he seemed to take care of the problem. I have a lot of Tilapia now in the tank and they immediately clean up any algae that occurs. I haven't coated or covered the IBC and don't have algae now but in the winter I will be insulating all my IBCs.

Thank you to all who have helped on the algae problem.  It's great that we all help each other.

Stev

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I put 2 inch foam around the fish tank this weekend to help keep the temp down.

Temp hit 109*F here in Southern UT and my water temp was about 90*F in my IBC tank. I just put foam all the way around it and a lid. the sump is in the ground. Any ideas on keeping this cool?

Some form of evaporative cooling at night might help. Also search the same on here. Rob has done some good work on that. I heard years ago that you can form ice on a clear night in the desert via evap cooling by insulating during the day and exposing the water at night. You are certainly fighting a hard battle.

Here I just let my artesian well overflow the sump when the sys temp hits 72F or higher. That also saturates the ground around the 275g sump which helps as well. I also keep 4 one gal juice bottles full and frozen in the deep freeze in case we hit a hot spell but here in the mountains I have only had to use them a couple of times. I place one in each of the 2 trout tanks and of course they float and bath the fish in cool water. 109F is tough. Run for the mountains and don't look back

Another thing that might help is an old chest freezer used as a FT and replace the t-stat with a room temp t-stat. I have that in my original plan but have not found a suitable freezer other than the 2 we use for our farm animals, etc. The wife won't let me have one of those bu I am on the lookout. Just be careful to avoid hitting the coils if you drill for pipes. One way of doing that is to turn it on open and the frost will show you the plumbing pretty quick.

Thanks Jim, I like the freezer idea I was thinking of just using one to cool a coil of black pipe. Sort of the flip side of a sun heater but I like the added fish tank .

If anyone here is in Maryland, I just created a group Maryland Aquaponics for open discussion about the difficulties specific to our area. Please join me and lets talk aquaponics.

I'm adding grow beds to my IBC system. Will the new beds cycle better with just running the fish water through them or would supplementing the media from a cycled bed work better?

It is always best to "Seed" with established media, that said, when I built my grow beds for my NFT system, I didn't have the media to seed with.  My grow beds did very well with the water flowing through them and the plants took off right away.  It is said that the bacteria need a foundation to grow upon to flourish but they are suspended in the water and deposit on the walls of the FT so...they will find their way to the media sooner than if you just started out with a new system.  As stated, it is better and quicker to seed with established media.

Hi Jeff, what Leo said. Just grab some gravel from your established bed, say a coffee can's worth and place that right near where the FT water enters the new beds. That will kickstart the new bed fast. Try to take a deep sample so you get a good strata from the various layers of gravel (or media).

Thanks guys. Good tip Jim about positioning of the media. Any suggestions on media? I have a grow stone covered by hydroton setup now but would like to go cheaper and/or lighter.

Well I use granite from a local quarry. I know it can be a bit controversial but granite dust is a highly acclaimed mineral supplement and it is 18.00 a ton pu at the Q so that comes to 9.00 per 12" deep IBC GB. That comes to .60 per cubic foot. I don't even want to know what that would be in Hydroton terms. I challenge anyone to beat that price and it is well graded and cleaned so it requires an absolute minimum of washing which I do right in the GB by redirecting the wash water outside the GH and not into the sump. Been using it going on 3 years and I see no real difference from the river gravel I used in the first 2 GBs at three times the cost. It also stays much cleaner looking than the river stone that is always creating more sediment.

Jeff-

  You can go with other medias but most (for me) are cost prohibitive.  I,like Jim, use a quartzite media called purple quartzite.  Here it's a bit more expensive even with UPU at $32 a sq yard but it is more than needed to fill 2-1/2 IBC grow beds.  Another media you can use/with drawbacks is scoria or lava rock.  It is very dirty and WILL cut your hands if you don't use HD rubber gloves but it is light and relatively inexpensive

Yeah I'll probably go with the granite or similar and cover it with a thin layer of Hydroton for aesthetics. I put a few red wigglers (a 100 or so)in my bed early spring but as I've pulled plants I haven't noticed any around the roots. You think they could've died off or am I expecting too much from the short period of time?

@ Leo "Another media you can use/with drawbacks is scoria or lava rock.  It is very dirty and WILL cut your hands if you don't use HD rubber gloves but it is light and relatively inexpensive"

I'll be using red lava rock because as you said it is cheap @ $50 per yard. is that the only drawback in using those, dirty and cut hands ?

How about germinating seeds directly on a GB that is lava rock ? Will it hurt the roots of the seedlings as it starts since since it has some sharp edges ?

Also, I was going to use decorative river gravel (@$65 per yard) on top 2" of the GB. The idea being that the deco rock is kinda white reflective and it will reflect back light under the leaves.

Is there any validity on this idea ?

Butch-

  There are pros and cons in every media.  As with the scoria - the pros are, it is relatively light, it has a MASSIVE surface area (someone said on a 1" piece of scoria there is something like 4-miles of surface area) for the bacteria to grow on.

Cons are it is volcanic glass and will cut your hands if you don't use HD rubber gloves (that's right, voice of experience) and it is very difficult to get clean because of the surface area.  I don't want the bacteria to enter any cuts, don't know if it will do me any harm but I won't take the chance.

  I direct seed my plants in the quartzite and have not encountered any problem with germination.  Just pull back the media and plant the seeds in the wet zone, cover over with the dry media and "Bobs your uncle"

  Unless there is a definite perk in covering your gravel with expensive river rock that MAY contain limestone and give you fits with trying to keep the pH in control, I wouldn't bother.  People that view my system can't believe that I grow my plants in the quartzite.  They can see what I use and I'm not that picky about my systems.  These are for my personal use so I don't care what it looks like.  At your price of river rock $65 that's too expensive, my purple quartzite cost me $36 a yard and I think it looks very nice.

  If you want to reflect light to the underside of the leaves place aluminum foil, shiny side up on the media.  This will reflect light very well but compare soil gardening, there is no reflective light bouncing off the soil and the plants do well.  That's your choice.

I sow my seeds in my grow media. I even built a small bed over a 45gallon aquarium just to germinate seedlings. If you are trying to produce as fast as possible it saves a few weeks of growing time in your GB if you have a separate germinating system or soil bed.

I covered my Grow Stones with hydroton for appearance and easier planting.

I use pea gravel (3/4" river rock) that I checked for limestone before getting  it at $45 a yard.  Seems like a lot of media prices vary depending on what is available in your area.

I would not recommend the white gravel top for two reasons:  1.  It might look nice at first, but unless you spend time washing it down, it won't stay white for long.  And 2.  although I'm in no way a biologist, I would argue that reflecting light back up to the leaves will have little affect as Mother Nature has designed plants to receive light top down.  I would also worry about algal growth on the white surface where the water is entering.  ( I guess that is three :) ).

@ jeff ... very nice

@ Leo and Arthur King ... noted .... yeah to think about it mother nature did not evolve plants to expect light from under.

river rock in my area is about $40 per yard. I like the lava rock a lot. porous and lightweight too. i'm for sure using gloves ;) hyrdoton is just out of my budget...way out.....

in soil gardening a lot of people uses azomite rock dust / volcanic dust and they swear by it. lots of trace minerals. I would assume that the lave rock dust will have some trace minerals too. maybe ? 

Butch-

  It may have some trace minerals but remember it is volcanic GLASS.  Sand is basically sterile so no trace minerals, scoria is made of melted sand.  It also is very dirty and all that bits of glass and dirt gets into your pump shortening its life.  If you must use a mineral supplement use granet dust or a phosphorous compound and little of it.  I have heard of someone using "green sand" but never heard of anything much after that so no results to be passed along. Don't know what happened, maybe another aquapon can give you the answer to that one.

Butch,

I have heard a lot of people use Seaweed extract to provide trace minerals to growing environment.  Also, you will find that the fish food will have some of these in as well.  The only thing I see at lot of people needing to add is a source of iron.  I have found that for me, the amount I get from my water replacement is sufficient.  I use both potassium bicarbonate and calcium carbonate via egg shells to buffer my water pH.

The seaweed extract here in the states is called "Maxi-crop".  Murry Hallum in Australia says it is called Seasol, I found my in a plant nursery, I don't think just any nursery has it but the bigger ones do.  You can also order it online but you will pay a hefty price for shipping.

  Butch-

  If you want to buffer with egg shells or oyster shells you must be patient as these break down very slowly, you add either and then check the pH and see that nothing happened so you add more.  Suddenly you find that your system is all out of whack so you add a buffering agent to lower the pH.  It can become a battle if you don't know that it works slow.  Right now - don't worry about the finesse part of aquaponics, worry about the basics, learn, read, experiment and MOST OF ALL  have fun.

I've had egg shells in my system for a couple of months and still have the pH going down. I add calcium carbonate to one 45 gallon system and potassium hydroxide & hydrated lime to the other to raise the pH. My IBC never goes below 7.2 and I never add anything to it. Not sure why the pH doesn't go down in the IBC.