A place to exchange information on breeding tilapia. How to set up tilapia breeding colonies. How to sex fish for breeding colonies. What foods are best for breeding pairs and fingerlings.
When they're trying to escape, they'll try to push through the walls or floor. I've seen that in the breeder tanks when the dominant fish are chasing the smaller ones.
Personally, with what you've described, I'd follow the advice of giving them hiding places. Try to put something in there that they can hide in; something that the bigger fish can't fit in. Give a day or two & see if things get better. If not, I'd reduce the water until they're over-crowded. See if they settle down. If they do, I'd increase the water a little at a time until they get aggressive.
The fish also have their own personalities. Some are definitely more aggressive than others. You may have just one that's instigating it all, and if you can have that one for dinner...
Michael, I agree with everything that Sheri has said. I remember I had one nasty female that was disrupting the entire colony, a big bully. Once she was "removed" so was the problem.
It is going to be the fish that is the bully. Pull it out and the next in line will fill the void but not as much of a bully, things will calm down. Will that solve your problem?
The one with a pink nose is probably one trying to escape.
More often than not, from what I've seen, the evil doer will be one of the biggest fish. If you have a separate aquarium, you can try pulling out the 5 biggest fish, then observe.
If things calm down in the main tank, watch the 5 in the other tank and see who becomes the most dominant. That will probably be your culprit.
If things don't calm down in the main tank, pull the next 5 largest. I doubt you'd have to go a second round, though.
Fish kill.. as some of you know I suffered a major fish kill last November loosing more than 100 6 month old fish. Biggest single killer is ammonia! It builds slowly and then exploads. First seperate your fish give them plenty of room. They say 5 gallons of water per fish but I would rather plan 10 gallons per mature fish. Now remenber these guys are growing so the fish density at 4 month old may be OK, but at 6 month you will find these same fish ovver crowded. Also with multiple tankage a fish kill in one tank will not affect fish in another tank. If you start having fish die in a tank, CHANGE THE WATER, start a syphon and pull as much water as possible out of that tank and repace it with fresh water. Excess feeding will cause a build up of uneaton food on the bottom of the tank and bang it will ferment and cause an ammonia bloom.
Another thing is even at 6 months old there may be some breeding going on. So you may think you only have 40 fish in a tank but find out you have 75, do to undetected breeding.
Hello fellow breeders! I am relatively new to this forum but excited to meet so many like minded friends. My husband and I have been breeding tilapia now for about a month and we have hundreds of babies, we don't know what to do with them all!!! I look forward to gaining knowledge from all of you and hopefully establishing relationships. Happy breeding!
Dave Story: I have had some active breeding going on. More by chance than by planning. I was down to 4 or 5 surviving fish in my 275 gal. polly tank. I think only one was a male. I have systematicly been capturing the fry and transferring them to one of my aquariums. This started about a month ago. Some have now reached the fingerling stage. Today I started to transfer some of those fingerlings back into my larger tanks.
Just constructed two new grow troughs. I'll be adding them to the system next week. And be constructing two more. Biggest thing needed now is for fish to grow out so I can expand my overall system. Planted some sweet potatoes (not in my system) Last year gopher turtles ate all my sweet potato plants. I have now constructed a 6ft x 6ft fenced "pen" to grow them in.
My paya are growing well, in my system.. I have 5 of them. Looks like 2 or three figs my one loane madjool date palm. Wating on some of 25 others to germinate. Still waiting for macadamia to germinate. My tomatoes blosoms are starting to produce tomatoes. My egg plants and green bell peper should start producing blossoms by the end of the month. Planted seeds for 33 wax beans today. Lettuce has started to return and I have 6 strawberry plants that produced about as many strawberries. I will look to propagate more with a view to next year. Jan 3rd frezze set me back a good 2 months. Wiping out just about everything.
SW: I am at the farm most days between at least 11:00 AM and 1:00 PM. I am located in Hudson, FL 34667. Thursday is not a good day, but give me a call 727-697-3536
Spring has sprung and my breeding colonies are cranking up. I have 4 moms with eggs in the last 2 days. I added a new male to one of my colonies of 4 females and within a few hours two of them had spawned! That boy is going to be a very good breeder!
Well, unfortunately we cannot sell our fish yet. We have a whole lot of babies, but are lacking a whole bunch of permits! We are working on them and will keep all of you posted. We have received way more requests for tilapia than I expected to! As soon as we become legal, I'll let y'all know! Thanks!
Today, as I was cleaning one of my breeding colonies, using a forceful spray into the sump, I noticed fingerlings. swimming at the bottom of the sump. I stopped and tossed in some feed.
Now that I have things worked out with my sump, I like the way it works, automatic seperation.
I have added azolla and duckweed to the sump tank as well as premium fish food, tilapia powerstart fingerling crumble. The azolla and duckweed float while the powerstart sinks.
I would say tilapia is more properly known for it's "lack of taste" it takes on the flavor of whatever you cook it with. Same is pretty much true for channel catfish though.
I am thinking that it might be better to have fast growing fish, if you plan to have a party or eat a lot of fish.
I have pretty much pure, White, Red, and Blue
I have mix of Mozams and Blues. the Whites grow fast under my conditions as well as the Reds. My Reds have a wide variation in size, as do my Whites. My blues are not growing as fast, but they are all pretty much the same size.
Some of my whites are about 16" in a year. my mix of whites and blues are a little smaller 12 to 14 inches same age.
+1 size matters. If you wanted to compare anything, texture would be a better measure but that will likely be mostly effected by size. Picking whatever variety that grows best in your conditions is likely the best choice as Dave said.
Be careful as regards State specific rules re which Tilapia you can have. Very hefty fines for violations. Unfortunately there may be limited or no defense by claiming you did not know the law..."ignorance of the law is no excuse".
Very true. If you want anything other than blues here in FL, you then need special additional permits to go with your aquaculture license and not all species are going to be allowed. In TX they are allowed different species. Some States don't like to let you grow tilapia at all and any species is a special case.
Thanks for the mention Dave! We also have a Hatchery Choice special going on right now with pricing as low as 70 cents a fish. Great deal for the bargain hunters out there.
I believe CA only allows the Mozambiques and blues.
Dr. George Brooks mentioned one that he said was as tender as butter (presumably when softened). :) It was a yellow hybrid. I don't anything else about it, though.
I am under the impression that if you are using these fish for your personal aquarium the laws do not apply.I am sure someone will know and say more about the law on here. I want to know more too.
in some states, for personal aquarium use it doesn't matter while in other states, the laws still apply but they just don't enforce them and in other places, they will fine you no matter what.
My mistake. In CA it's Mozambique and Hornorum, if you're lucky. What's allowed is very specific to each state. This page lists where you can get information about the laws in many of the states: http://www.tilapiafarmingathome.com/Pages/LegalIssues.aspx
There is nothing more relaxing to me than spending time with my fish & plants!
So I spent yesterday evening sexing out a couple of my IBC tanks. I now have females in one tank, males in another and under 4" fingerlings in a 3rd. My breeding colonies are all set up in 125 gallon aquariums and are starting to produce new fry.
Be sure to check out the "Free Fingerlings For Aquapons" group if you need fingerlings or have extra you'd like to give.
be certain that you are not sending water through the garden hose heater at night since it will act as a chiller at night.
Also, you might not want to use a regular black garden hose as a heater for a food system, some garden hoses have not so good stuff as plasticizers that you don't really want to be using in a recirculating food system.
It happened. Last month, I had itty-bity fry in my sump. In my other tanks, I had been busy catching and seperating new from old. So, I liked the sump way so much that I started to plan for it to happen again. food and air in my sump with lights.. BANG. This morning I saw two itty-bitys in my sump.. the water flow from the overflow was slow, so I cleaded the sump pump prefilter.. Now I have a bunch of itty-bittys in my sump. No extra work to seperate the new from the old.. In the past, I killed a bunch of frys during the seperation process. I need to see how Kellen seperates, BUT for now, WOW I love the auto sump process.
Bob, it depends on many variables. If you're raising tilapia, the best you can do is as good as the commercial producers. They raise male only, under very specific, highly monitored conditions, and can get fish to market in 6 months. In a home system, it tends to be much longer.
The amount of food, type of food, temperatures, breeding activity, water condition, space, circulation, and aeration all play into the mix. We're finding a year is more realistic, and depending on conditions, longer. One gentleman we know is growing his quite large and quickly, and he monitors his system very closely.
As for how many fish, a rule of thumb for tilapia is one fish per 5 gallons, which would be 40 in your system. But, as they grow older, if they conditions are not optimal, the fish will slow down their eating and subsequent growth.
The more fish you have, the more growbed space you need. With 20 fish, as they grow, you will probably be able to (and may need to) handle another growbed. With 40 fish, which is what we did in our first system, we needed a lot more growbed. We're expanding now, and will have 3 growbeds and two half-barrels with 40 1' fish. Along with any increase in fish, you also have to increase circulation and aeration. So, if you want to stay with a single growbed, keep your fish population smaller.
Bob, your fish tank does not dictate the number of fish you may raise, so long as they are comfortable and peaceable. Crowding actually sometimes keeps the peace, and with all the right stuff, you could potentially keep 200 lbs of fish in a 200 gallon tank. But again, the tank is not your weakest link.
A common Max stocking ratio is 1 lb of fish, to 5 gal FT, to 10 gal media, perhaps pushing the GB limit to 7.5 gal (1 cubic ft) per lb of fish in a seasoned, stable system. So, 12 sq ft of grow bed could support 12 lbs if fish, MAX. For tilapia, I would stock 20 fingerlings. 20 fingerlings will fit in the palm of your hand, and by no means tax your biofilter for many months. You can start eating them any time you want, most wait til they are a pound or so. I would start the barbecue when the biggest hits a pound, and keep eating to maintain less than 10-12 lbs of total fish weight, and save back a male and a few females to breed next spring. If you're going to grow all year, then establish a breeding colony this fall and breed as needed to maintain 10 lbs of fish. It's easier to cull a few if you have too many, than it is to "wish" you had more.
Keep it simple. Start with 20-40 tilapia. Fingerlings are best they can learn to adapt to the way you do things. If you use good feed and feed 4-6 times a day, you can start eating at about the 6 mos time frame. If all goes well, then start thinking about breeding. I had a lot of encouragement and helpful discussions, before I started breeding. I am not competition to anyone. I do think it is alot easier to just buy fish from Sarah at http://tilapiasource.com
But I will be off the grid next year. So I want to know how to do.
I have learned a great deal for discussions with Sheri.
Truth is a lot of people on here have great stories/experiences to share.BUT, just because it works for one person, it might not work for another person.. Jump in and keep it simple.BUT always have fun.
Michael Welber
They must be bumping because one or two a day are still dying and I just don't know why.
Apr 3, 2012
Michael Welber
I have already done number one. And I have been asking a lot of questions but can't seem to get to the bottom of it. Thanks.
Apr 3, 2012
Sheri Schmeckpeper
When they're trying to escape, they'll try to push through the walls or floor. I've seen that in the breeder tanks when the dominant fish are chasing the smaller ones.
Personally, with what you've described, I'd follow the advice of giving them hiding places. Try to put something in there that they can hide in; something that the bigger fish can't fit in. Give a day or two & see if things get better. If not, I'd reduce the water until they're over-crowded. See if they settle down. If they do, I'd increase the water a little at a time until they get aggressive.
The fish also have their own personalities. Some are definitely more aggressive than others. You may have just one that's instigating it all, and if you can have that one for dinner...
Apr 3, 2012
SW
Michael,
I agree with everything that Sheri has said. I remember I had one nasty female that was disrupting the entire colony, a big bully. Once she was "removed" so was the problem.
Apr 4, 2012
Michael Welber
How do I figure out which one it is? The one with the pink nose?
Apr 4, 2012
Dave & Yvonne Story
Michael
It is going to be the fish that is the bully. Pull it out and the next in line will fill the void but not as much of a bully, things will calm down. Will that solve your problem?
Apr 4, 2012
TCLynx
Michael,
observation is the only real way to figure out who the bully is and that will be difficult if your water is cloudy and you can't watch them easily.
Apr 4, 2012
Sheri Schmeckpeper
The one with a pink nose is probably one trying to escape.
More often than not, from what I've seen, the evil doer will be one of the biggest fish. If you have a separate aquarium, you can try pulling out the 5 biggest fish, then observe.
If things calm down in the main tank, watch the 5 in the other tank and see who becomes the most dominant. That will probably be your culprit.
If things don't calm down in the main tank, pull the next 5 largest. I doubt you'd have to go a second round, though.
Apr 4, 2012
Dave Lindstedt
Fish kill.. as some of you know I suffered a major fish kill last November loosing more than 100 6 month old fish. Biggest single killer is ammonia! It builds slowly and then exploads. First seperate your fish give them plenty of room. They say 5 gallons of water per fish but I would rather plan 10 gallons per mature fish. Now remenber these guys are growing so the fish density at 4 month old may be OK, but at 6 month you will find these same fish ovver crowded. Also with multiple tankage a fish kill in one tank will not affect fish in another tank. If you start having fish die in a tank, CHANGE THE WATER, start a syphon and pull as much water as possible out of that tank and repace it with fresh water. Excess feeding will cause a build up of uneaton food on the bottom of the tank and bang it will ferment and cause an ammonia bloom.
Another thing is even at 6 months old there may be some breeding going on. So you may think you only have 40 fish in a tank but find out you have 75, do to undetected breeding.
Hope this helps.
Apr 5, 2012
Dave & Yvonne Story
Dave,
Just thinking of you today. I did not have my camera here, but I will send you some pictures, tomorrow
Your comment below:
I over feed..
I test the water for ammonia at least weekly
I like 10 gals per adult fish .. room to grow and eat..
I believe I have some that more than 16" at 10 mos of age
Apr 5, 2012
Nicolette Moore
Apr 6, 2012
Dave Lindstedt
Dave Story: I have had some active breeding going on. More by chance than by planning. I was down to 4 or 5 surviving fish in my 275 gal. polly tank. I think only one was a male. I have systematicly been capturing the fry and transferring them to one of my aquariums. This started about a month ago. Some have now reached the fingerling stage. Today I started to transfer some of those fingerlings back into my larger tanks.
Just constructed two new grow troughs. I'll be adding them to the system next week. And be constructing two more. Biggest thing needed now is for fish to grow out so I can expand my overall system. Planted some sweet potatoes (not in my system) Last year gopher turtles ate all my sweet potato plants. I have now constructed a 6ft x 6ft fenced "pen" to grow them in.
My paya are growing well, in my system.. I have 5 of them. Looks like 2 or three figs my one loane madjool date palm. Wating on some of 25 others to germinate. Still waiting for macadamia to germinate. My tomatoes blosoms are starting to produce tomatoes. My egg plants and green bell peper should start producing blossoms by the end of the month. Planted seeds for 33 wax beans today. Lettuce has started to return and I have 6 strawberry plants that produced about as many strawberries. I will look to propagate more with a view to next year. Jan 3rd frezze set me back a good 2 months. Wiping out just about everything.
Apr 6, 2012
Sheri Schmeckpeper
Hi, Nicolette! The first thing to do is to have fun! Watch the little ones grow before your eyes, because they grow fast!
You can do many things with your fry:
Be sure you know the laws of your state regarding moving, selling, raising tilapia. Each state is different, and some are pretty restrictive.
Apr 9, 2012
Dave & Yvonne Story
Dave L
Kudos.Great job, WOW
Apr 10, 2012
SW
You've sure been busy Dave! I would love to come by and check out what you've been up to!
Apr 21, 2012
Dave Lindstedt
SW: I am at the farm most days between at least 11:00 AM and 1:00 PM. I am located in Hudson, FL 34667. Thursday is not a good day, but give me a call 727-697-3536
May 2, 2012
SW
Spring has sprung and my breeding colonies are cranking up. I have 4 moms with eggs in the last 2 days. I added a new male to one of my colonies of 4 females and within a few hours two of them had spawned! That boy is going to be a very good breeder!
Let them search for more grow out space begin!
May 3, 2012
Nicolette Moore
Well, unfortunately we cannot sell our fish yet. We have a whole lot of babies, but are lacking a whole bunch of permits! We are working on them and will keep all of you posted. We have received way more requests for tilapia than I expected to! As soon as we become legal, I'll let y'all know! Thanks!
May 3, 2012
Dave & Yvonne Story
Today, as I was cleaning one of my breeding colonies, using a forceful spray into the sump, I noticed fingerlings. swimming at the bottom of the sump. I stopped and tossed in some feed.
May 5, 2012
Sheri Schmeckpeper
Nice surprise, Dave!
May 5, 2012
SW
Lagniappe (a little something extra) is always good Dave!
May 7, 2012
Dave & Yvonne Story
Now that I have things worked out with my sump, I like the way it works, automatic seperation.
I have added azolla and duckweed to the sump tank as well as premium fish food, tilapia powerstart fingerling crumble. The azolla and duckweed float while the powerstart sinks.
May 7, 2012
SW
I like that Dave! How many gallon is that sump?
May 7, 2012
Dave & Yvonne Story
looks to be larger that a 10 gal and smaller than a 20.
the sump is for a 50 gal bow aquarium.
May 7, 2012
marty lininger
i wonder if anyone knows if one type of tilapia is better known for its taste than other kinds?
May 10, 2012
Dave & Yvonne Story
Great idea.
If there aren't any opinions, I will run a survey this summer and keep you posted
May 10, 2012
TCLynx
I would say tilapia is more properly known for it's "lack of taste" it takes on the flavor of whatever you cook it with. Same is pretty much true for channel catfish though.
May 10, 2012
Dave & Yvonne Story
cool
I am thinking that it might be better to have fast growing fish, if you plan to have a party or eat a lot of fish.
I have pretty much pure, White, Red, and Blue
I have mix of Mozams and Blues. the Whites grow fast under my conditions as well as the Reds. My Reds have a wide variation in size, as do my Whites. My blues are not growing as fast, but they are all pretty much the same size.
Some of my whites are about 16" in a year. my mix of whites and blues are a little smaller 12 to 14 inches same age.
Size matters, when preparing.
May 10, 2012
Chris Carr
+1 size matters. If you wanted to compare anything, texture would be a better measure but that will likely be mostly effected by size. Picking whatever variety that grows best in your conditions is likely the best choice as Dave said.
May 10, 2012
Dave & Yvonne Story
If you want to try different types of tilapia..
Ask http://tilapiasource.com/zc/
They got me started and have been very helpful.
May 10, 2012
Sahib Punjabi
Be careful as regards State specific rules re which Tilapia you can have. Very hefty fines for violations. Unfortunately there may be limited or no defense by claiming you did not know the law..."ignorance of the law is no excuse".
May 10, 2012
TCLynx
Very true. If you want anything other than blues here in FL, you then need special additional permits to go with your aquaculture license and not all species are going to be allowed. In TX they are allowed different species. Some States don't like to let you grow tilapia at all and any species is a special case.
May 10, 2012
Kellen Weissenbach
Thanks for the mention Dave! We also have a Hatchery Choice special going on right now with pricing as low as 70 cents a fish. Great deal for the bargain hunters out there.
May 10, 2012
Sheri Schmeckpeper
I believe CA only allows the Mozambiques and blues.
Dr. George Brooks mentioned one that he said was as tender as butter (presumably when softened). :) It was a yellow hybrid. I don't anything else about it, though.
May 10, 2012
Dave & Yvonne Story
I am under the impression that if you are using these fish for your personal aquarium the laws do not apply.I am sure someone will know and say more about the law on here. I want to know more too.
May 10, 2012
TCLynx
in some states, for personal aquarium use it doesn't matter while in other states, the laws still apply but they just don't enforce them and in other places, they will fine you no matter what.
May 10, 2012
Sheri Schmeckpeper
My mistake. In CA it's Mozambique and Hornorum, if you're lucky. What's allowed is very specific to each state. This page lists where you can get information about the laws in many of the states: http://www.tilapiafarmingathome.com/Pages/LegalIssues.aspx
May 10, 2012
Dave & Yvonne Story
Sheri,
Great site.
tanks
May 10, 2012
SW
~~~Life Is Good~~~
There is nothing more relaxing to me than spending time with my fish & plants!
So I spent yesterday evening sexing out a couple of my IBC tanks. I now have females in one tank, males in another and under 4" fingerlings in a 3rd. My breeding colonies are all set up in 125 gallon aquariums and are starting to produce new fry.
Be sure to check out the "Free Fingerlings For Aquapons" group if you need fingerlings or have extra you'd like to give.
Best regards to all,
Sam
May 11, 2012
Calvin Wyatt Rodriguez
I built a solar heater out of garden hose, works great! over night heat losses have prompted plans to insulate.
May 23, 2012
TCLynx
be certain that you are not sending water through the garden hose heater at night since it will act as a chiller at night.
Also, you might not want to use a regular black garden hose as a heater for a food system, some garden hoses have not so good stuff as plasticizers that you don't really want to be using in a recirculating food system.
May 24, 2012
Dave & Yvonne Story
It happened. Last month, I had itty-bity fry in my sump. In my other tanks, I had been busy catching and seperating new from old. So, I liked the sump way so much that I started to plan for it to happen again. food and air in my sump with lights.. BANG. This morning I saw two itty-bitys in my sump.. the water flow from the overflow was slow, so I cleaded the sump pump prefilter.. Now I have a bunch of itty-bittys in my sump. No extra work to seperate the new from the old.. In the past, I killed a bunch of frys during the seperation process. I need to see how Kellen seperates, BUT for now, WOW I love the auto sump process.
May 25, 2012
Sheri Schmeckpeper
Nice, Dave! Nothing like an accident turning into an asset!
May 25, 2012
Bob Vento
Ok ya'll I am at a point where my system is cycled up and ready for some fish. I have a 200 gallon tank with a 12 square foot grow bed.
It was suggested that I get no more than 20 fingerlings for my system. Does that sound right?
When do we get to the point of eating Tilapia? How long does it take? When should I begin breeding fish?
Thanks in advance for any and all advise and direction.
Regards,
Bob
May 29, 2012
Sheri Schmeckpeper
Bob, it depends on many variables. If you're raising tilapia, the best you can do is as good as the commercial producers. They raise male only, under very specific, highly monitored conditions, and can get fish to market in 6 months. In a home system, it tends to be much longer.
The amount of food, type of food, temperatures, breeding activity, water condition, space, circulation, and aeration all play into the mix. We're finding a year is more realistic, and depending on conditions, longer. One gentleman we know is growing his quite large and quickly, and he monitors his system very closely.
As for how many fish, a rule of thumb for tilapia is one fish per 5 gallons, which would be 40 in your system. But, as they grow older, if they conditions are not optimal, the fish will slow down their eating and subsequent growth.
The more fish you have, the more growbed space you need. With 20 fish, as they grow, you will probably be able to (and may need to) handle another growbed. With 40 fish, which is what we did in our first system, we needed a lot more growbed. We're expanding now, and will have 3 growbeds and two half-barrels with 40 1' fish. Along with any increase in fish, you also have to increase circulation and aeration. So, if you want to stay with a single growbed, keep your fish population smaller.
May 29, 2012
Phil Slaton
Bob - I believe that you can go 35 fingerlings no problem. But then again, I use 1000 gal/hour pumps in my system.
I would like to read more comment on this subject.
May 29, 2012
Jon Parr
A common Max stocking ratio is 1 lb of fish, to 5 gal FT, to 10 gal media, perhaps pushing the GB limit to 7.5 gal (1 cubic ft) per lb of fish in a seasoned, stable system. So, 12 sq ft of grow bed could support 12 lbs if fish, MAX. For tilapia, I would stock 20 fingerlings. 20 fingerlings will fit in the palm of your hand, and by no means tax your biofilter for many months. You can start eating them any time you want, most wait til they are a pound or so. I would start the barbecue when the biggest hits a pound, and keep eating to maintain less than 10-12 lbs of total fish weight, and save back a male and a few females to breed next spring. If you're going to grow all year, then establish a breeding colony this fall and breed as needed to maintain 10 lbs of fish. It's easier to cull a few if you have too many, than it is to "wish" you had more.
May 29, 2012
Dave & Yvonne Story
Bob,
I am not an expert, just experienced.
Keep it simple. Start with 20-40 tilapia. Fingerlings are best they can learn to adapt to the way you do things. If you use good feed and feed 4-6 times a day, you can start eating at about the 6 mos time frame. If all goes well, then start thinking about breeding. I had a lot of encouragement and helpful discussions, before I started breeding. I am not competition to anyone. I do think it is alot easier to just buy fish from Sarah at http://tilapiasource.com
But I will be off the grid next year. So I want to know how to do.
May 29, 2012
Sheri Schmeckpeper
Just FYI, Bob, Dave is the gentleman who has raised his fish so large and so quickly, so I always defer to his wisdom on the subject.
May 29, 2012
Dave & Yvonne Story
I have learned a great deal for discussions with Sheri.
Truth is a lot of people on here have great stories/experiences to share.BUT, just because it works for one person, it might not work for another person.. Jump in and keep it simple.BUT always have fun.
May 29, 2012