Tank Ratio enhancement through carnivorous fish

[William J Silverthorn]

I'm trying to understand this concept thoroughly before designing my first Aquaponic system. I'm finding plenty of advice to say "stick to the recommended ratios" or else bad things will happen...

so if you have too many fish and not enough media space or growbed or biofilter to take care of the waste, then the fish poison themselves and die... I get that part and I dont intend to stress my fish out.

I'm wondering about the alternative deviation with too much growspace and not enough fish, would not harm the fish at all, but instead result in possibly slower growing conditions for the plants who dont have enough Nitrates to keep up with optimized growing speeds.

I was thinking of using a single IBC tote fishtank combined with 4 growbeds with autosiphons and a single continuous pump through a sequencing valve into those 4 growbeds. my first concern was the obvious straying from recommended 1 to 1 ratio, however I wonder if using higher protein feed with carnivorous breeds would provide an elevated output of more potent fertilizer that could fuel the needs of extra growbeds?

I have not found a great deal of warning in this area, since most immediate danger lies with the fish and not with the plants... so... has anyone experienced this first hand or should I experiment with it myself?

[TCLynx]

Drilling the hole in the elbow or the vertical pipe will work to stop the siphon, however it won't really be effective as an additional overflow should you get leaves or heaven forbid a plastic bag covering the grate in the bottom of the drain.  Yea crazy things happen.

Leo White Bear said:

Or instead of the Tee, drill a hole in the vertical pipe a few inches down from the elbow.  You still get the SLO, its less expensive (although by a few cents).  But I HAVE to agree with TC, use screening on the bottom of this pipe otherwise you will suck up your fish.  A good way to do this is to check out PVC drain screens, made for bath tubs, they fit into a fitting that attatches to the end of the vertical pipe, You may need to get as reducer from this fitting to your pipe.

TCLynx said:

Actually put a T instead of an elbow at the top of the vertical pipe in the fish tank and you get a SLO (solids lifting overflow) drain rather than a siphon and comes with a built in overflow.  Be sure to use appropriate grates to keep your fish from visiting the inside of your plumbing or sunning themselves on the gravel in the grow beds.

Leo White Bear said:

Get rid of the vertical pipe in the fish tank.  If power should go out, you will be siphioning all the water out of your fish tank,   It doesn't take long for this to happen.

I kinda like Jim's idea of doing the long pipe with slots to suck up gunk off the bottom with the air stones attached to the top of the pipe.  Just make sure you have a reasonably easy way to pull that hole pipe and air stones up out of the tank when needed since air stones should probably get at least yearly cleanings and you may want to remove all the plumbing out of the tank when it is time for complete harvest.

[Jim Fisk]

They are all "bell siphons".

The difference is the "Bernoulli Principle" funnel on top of the stand pipe. That makes the siphon start MUCH faster due to the greater avalanche of water going over the top (as opposed to a plain pipe) and plugging the stand pipe all at once thus starting the siphon faster. That allows for less involved in "breaking" the siphon at the other end of the cycle and makes the whole siphon issue much easier to balance. The big deal is the 2-1 funnel. Go look again as you appear to have missed the point. Study it until you get it. Affnan worked very hard to help us out with this as did Bernoulli (of Bernoulli's Principle from 1738). His formula is spot on and will save you hours of frustration. Affnan does get into the weeds a bit and I see people's eyes glaze over and roll back trying to understand his point but it is very important if you are going to use bell siphons. Also very simple if you just visualize what is happening. Makes total sense. The more you work with these things the quicker you get it. Experience, there is no substitute. One of the few advantages of getting old

William J Silverthorn said:

I'm looking at the designs for Affnan siphon and I dont see the difference between Affnan and Bell siphons.
they both have a media guard.
they both have an outer creating a pressure barrier. (one calls it a bell, the other doesn't)
they both have a standpipe and a reducer that creates suction after the water spills into the standpipe.

they seem like the same idea to me.

thanks for the diagrams

[Jim Fisk]

Yup, I don't glue the "L" pipe to the "T". The side tap is threaded on the T so you can't take it off there easily but a bit of persuasion and the pipe will come out of the bottom of the T for inspection and cleaning and some day "harvest"

All else should be glued. I place the bottom slotted pipe against the bottom so it can't come out without swinging it a bit to the side and that makes it PU the waste better as well. The T makes the perfect overflow like TC said and a good place for the cleaning brush as stated. My catfish tank still has my first set up and a slotted 90 and I will be changing that one for so many reasons stated above. Made for a good comparison tho.
TCLynx said:

Drilling the hole in the elbow or the vertical pipe will work to stop the siphon, however it won't really be effective as an additional overflow should you get leaves or heaven forbid a plastic bag covering the grate in the bottom of the drain.  Yea crazy things happen.

Leo White Bear said:

Or instead of the Tee, drill a hole in the vertical pipe a few inches down from the elbow.  You still get the SLO, its less expensive (although by a few cents).  But I HAVE to agree with TC, use screening on the bottom of this pipe otherwise you will suck up your fish.  A good way to do this is to check out PVC drain screens, made for bath tubs, they fit into a fitting that attatches to the end of the vertical pipe, You may need to get as reducer from this fitting to your pipe.

TCLynx said:

Actually put a T instead of an elbow at the top of the vertical pipe in the fish tank and you get a SLO (solids lifting overflow) drain rather than a siphon and comes with a built in overflow.  Be sure to use appropriate grates to keep your fish from visiting the inside of your plumbing or sunning themselves on the gravel in the grow beds.

Leo White Bear said:

Get rid of the vertical pipe in the fish tank.  If power should go out, you will be siphioning all the water out of your fish tank,   It doesn't take long for this to happen.

I kinda like Jim's idea of doing the long pipe with slots to suck up gunk off the bottom with the air stones attached to the top of the pipe.  Just make sure you have a reasonably easy way to pull that hole pipe and air stones up out of the tank when needed since air stones should probably get at least yearly cleanings and you may want to remove all the plumbing out of the tank when it is time for complete harvest.

[William J Silverthorn]

Jim I really like your design for the horizontal SLO at the bottom. I had not planned on using air stones but now I think I will. after thumbing through your awesome photo collection, I notice that you string several tanks in series to separate species that tolerate different water temperatures... I have many questions about this as you seem to have a complex system that manages quite a lot of diversity.

Jim Fisk said:

If you have a chop saw you may want to try my method. I go to the bottom of my fish tanks  in 1 1'4" and then into a 90 and across the bottom a few feet and a cap on the end. Then using the chop saw I cut 1/4" (big enough to pass food and waste but not fish) slots across the bottom of that bottom pipe in a grill fashion and strap your Walmart 12" or two 10" air stones on top of that bottom pipe. This draws the waste right to your pick up slotted pipe and greatly helps keep your tank cleaner. Also I use a round rat tail type appliance brush to push down the tee slowly a foot or two, pulse it up and down a couple of inches and then rapidly pull it up and out of the T. This clears out any stuck crud and clears everything.

I do this once or twice a week on each tank. Works really well. You can see a pic at my home page if this appeals to you.

Ah ok, I didnt realize bell siphons lacked a reducer. it seems to make more sense with the pressure if the flow is focused with a narrowing pipe of some sort.

TCLynx said:

William, the regular bell siphon doesn't have a reducer.

The affnan modification does.

[TCLynx]

Well the reducer or "Affnan" modification is still a bell siphon but not all bell siphons have the Affnan modification (reducer).

[Jim Fisk]

Not to nit pick but it is actually an "increaser" and not a reducer. It increases the amount of water that hits the standpipe and starts the siphon by 200%. That in turn allows for more leeway at the "break" end of the process.

[TCLynx]

LOL.  Jim I guess it depends on the direction you flow.  If you flow up your stand pipe then you go from a smaller pipe to a bigger one so I guess it is increasing the diameter.

However I think most of us think about flowing DOWN the stand pipe so the effect is funnel like reducing the diameter of the pipe as you go down.   AND, if you walk into a plumbing section and ask for a pipe "increaser" you are likely to confuse the poor attendant if they are well trained enough to know what most of their fittings are even called.  Most of these adapters I've seen called reducer couplings.  Reducer couplings are harder to find though and at a local hardware store you are more likely to find bushings or reducer bushings.

Not to give you a hard time but I'm trying to save the newbies some trouble when they go pester the plumbing departments.

[Jim Fisk]

Good point from that point of view TC. You are so good at keeping me grounded. I tend to think in terms of what is actually going on in the device rather than what to ask for. That comes after "understanding". Been doing this sort of thing so long "I know what I mean"

I do think it helps people understand the concept better though. I promise not to get into the weeds like Affnan does however.He even had me confused at first but then the light went off.

[TCLynx]

I'm sometimes fairly good at translating for other people from "Tech Think" to "I need the thingy to go into the what's it" that the hardware store might understand. 

Having spent enough time pawing through the best hardware store plumbing departments around my two counties, most people think I work there even through I'm not wearing the vest or apron.

[Jim Fisk]

So true. Happens to me all the time and it is always fun to help both in electrical and plumbing. Since I have been selling siphons on Ebay I am in there all the time and it gets pretty funny. I'm probably there (Lowes) more than some of their part time help. Today I was out of blue knobs. Always something even though I keep an inventory now. Soon I will stock everything in large numbers. Problem is it is over an hour of driving from up here in the mtns. But such a beautiful drive thru the switchbacks that it is hard to complain. Of course we are also plumbing and wiring our rather large house as well but we will be moved in there within a month when our daughter arrives and moves into the cabin. YIKES!

TCLynx said:

Having spent enough time pawing through the best hardware store plumbing departments around my two counties, most people think I work there even through I'm not wearing the vest or apron.