Tomato plants in the grow bed - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-29T04:43:55Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/tomato-plants-in-the-grow-bed?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A357838&feed=yes&xn_auth=noYeah pH I'm sure is definitel…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-02:4778851:Comment:3580152012-07-02T17:27:43.905ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Yeah pH I'm sure is definitely at the top of the list of culprits Rupe...but honestly, (maybe there's just been a "rash" of it recently, so it's at the forefront of my mind) there have been a number of folks with those types of problems (intervenal chlorosis on old (Mg) as well as new (Fe) leaves, yellowing around the edges (K) I'm presuming...with pH's in the range of mid 6's...dosing MaxiCrop...mostly cucurbits...who knows...and a low pH even in the low 5's as I understand, isn't ever a…</p>
<p>Yeah pH I'm sure is definitely at the top of the list of culprits Rupe...but honestly, (maybe there's just been a "rash" of it recently, so it's at the forefront of my mind) there have been a number of folks with those types of problems (intervenal chlorosis on old (Mg) as well as new (Fe) leaves, yellowing around the edges (K) I'm presuming...with pH's in the range of mid 6's...dosing MaxiCrop...mostly cucurbits...who knows...and a low pH even in the low 5's as I understand, isn't ever a problem as it pertains to nutrient "lock out" issues. I doubt you'd want to ever go any lower in an AP setting hehe...</p>
<p>I was just coupling that with the "unique" (meaning quite high Mg and K) nutritional requirements for such cultivars, and the type of 'nutrient environment' a new AP might in reality provide even at a decent pH (generally managed in the manner that they are)...</p>
<p>I've been reading a lot of Papadoupolis (1994) from the Harrow Research Station in Ontario's take on cucurbits reqirements for essential elements, this spring/early summer...soil as well as hydro...and I tell ya after applying some of that knowledge gleened from that book, my cucumbers and zucchini have never ever been bigger, healthier, more productive, less problematic etc...exceeding any expectations I may have had...Mg and K I believe were key in my particular situation (might not be applicable to everyone elses though, then again it might be to some...)...another reason I've got Mg and K on my mind'...</p>
<p>I did not know that a cukes need for Mg is equal to its requirement for Ca. Or that its K requirement exceeds its required N...which compared to even tomatoes seems quite high (in my mind, relative to other plants)...</p>
<p>In a nut shell, I guess that's where I was coming from and why...</p>
<p>I bet you're right about the mineralisation...and subsequent 'build-up' of nutrients in a mature system...</p> Yes we did put a hnd full of…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-02:4778851:Comment:3580132012-07-02T17:00:40.765ZBrian OLynekhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/BrianOLynek
<p>Yes we did put a hnd full of read wiggly worms in about a month ago. We put some kelp in yesterday & today & the chemical readings are looking better i.e. the Ph has come up to 6.8 .</p>
<p> Blessings Brian <a href="http://www.quantumleaps.ca" target="_blank">www.quantumleaps.ca</a><br></br> <br></br> <cite>RupertofOZ said:…</cite></p>
<p>Yes we did put a hnd full of read wiggly worms in about a month ago. We put some kelp in yesterday & today & the chemical readings are looking better i.e. the Ph has come up to 6.8 .</p>
<p> Blessings Brian <a href="http://www.quantumleaps.ca" target="_blank">www.quantumleaps.ca</a><br/> <br/> <cite>RupertofOZ said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/tomato-plants-in-the-grow-bed?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A357934&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4778851Comment357934"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I hear you Vlad... but most of the systems I've seen "suffering".... have primarily been due to pH issues... and trace element lockout....not deficiencies as such...</p>
<p></p>
<p>But there's no denying that systems certainly mature after about six months... probably due to mineralisation by the worms...</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> I hear you Vlad... but most o…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-02:4778851:Comment:3579342012-07-02T16:44:09.026ZRupertofOZhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RupertofOZ
<p>I hear you Vlad... but most of the systems I've seen "suffering".... have primarily been due to pH issues... and trace element lockout....not deficiencies as such...</p>
<p></p>
<p>But there's no denying that systems certainly mature after about six months... probably due to mineralisation by the worms...</p>
<p>I hear you Vlad... but most of the systems I've seen "suffering".... have primarily been due to pH issues... and trace element lockout....not deficiencies as such...</p>
<p></p>
<p>But there's no denying that systems certainly mature after about six months... probably due to mineralisation by the worms...</p> Key word phrase there IMO is…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-02:4778851:Comment:3577582012-07-02T13:59:26.076ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Key word phrase there IMO is the part where it's YOU doing the planting and setting up of the system Rupert...</p>
<p>This forum is rife with photographs of <em>brand new</em> systems planted with a bunch of say, cucumbers and almost all of those pics clearly show intervenal chlorosis of older, and all but the youngest leaves, ...tons of yellowing around the edges etc...struggling plants doing very far from well... And dozens of folks with "hey my tomato plants are huge but no tomatoes"…</p>
<p>Key word phrase there IMO is the part where it's YOU doing the planting and setting up of the system Rupert...</p>
<p>This forum is rife with photographs of <em>brand new</em> systems planted with a bunch of say, cucumbers and almost all of those pics clearly show intervenal chlorosis of older, and all but the youngest leaves, ...tons of yellowing around the edges etc...struggling plants doing very far from well... And dozens of folks with "hey my tomato plants are huge but no tomatoes" again, almost always in brand new or in some cases still cycling systems...etc...leads me to say statements like the AP system is "lacking" in magnesium, and/or potassium blablabla...I'm not knocking AP because <em>if managed properly I believe most of these things become non-issues. </em>(Alternating buffers, dolomitic lime, potassium bicarb, lime... keeping pH in proper ranges, keeping a handle on stocking densities, QUALITY fish food, the whole lot...which includes timing plantings with your weather/seasons...there are people wondering why their young snow peas are doing crappy in July for instance...I'm not knocking those folks, just saying...we are all learning constantly... And besides it is rude to say that "AP operators are notoriously lacking...")...Brian lives in Canada and stated that the toms are 3 months old...so I'm just guessing that temps probably weren't the issue</p>
<p>I don't see these things in photos of systems by people who have been at it for a year or two or more in some cases.</p>
<p>Now, I'm not going to argue with you Rupe, but still IMO the way a lot folks set up their system, barely get cycled and pop in a bunch of squash, tomatoes and cucumbers...I'd say that their AP system is "lacking" in terms of what someone was expecting to achieve. The other side of looking at this I guess would be that peoples expectations or desires may be completely out of line with what their system, <em>managed in the way that it is</em>, can realistically support. I still feel that in a <em>brand new</em> system with some eggshells thrown in for buffering, or whatever...there is probably not enough neither magnesium, nor potassium to support decent growth of zucchini/summer squash, cucumbers, or even tomatoes right off the bat (the way most folks seem to be doing it at least...which isn't to say that it can't be done).</p>
<p>Yeah, phosphorous probably often over played for the reasons TC mentions, and judging from the red tilapia poo studies (of what they retain from the particular feed used in the studies and what they crap out, it doesn't seem like it (P) should ever be a problem...not sure how that plays out for the people feeding them gold-fish flakes, or all duckweed though...</p>
<p>.</p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>RupertofOZ said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/tomato-plants-in-the-grow-bed?xg_source=activity#4778851Comment357832"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>One of the first crops I usually plant in a new system... and usually requested by clients.... are tomatoes....</p>
<p></p>
<p>And I've never had, or seen a problem.... and have posted pictures of both my own ... and other systems on this site... showing abundant tomato growth and yield.... in systems from day one...</p>
<p></p>
<p>Buffer your pH.... foliar feed with some Maxicrop periodically.... and you shouldn't have a problem with anything....</p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> Yep, I believe we have arrive…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-02:4778851:Comment:3576992012-07-02T13:57:28.857ZGeorgehttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/Geoge
<p>Yep, I believe we have arrived at that stage already this year. I'll keep some tomatoes alive to root for fall planting but I don't expect much fruit for two months or more. It's darn hot. <br></br> <br></br> <cite>TCLynx said:</cite></p>
<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Then again being where I live, most varieties of tomatoes just don't bloom through the heat of summer since our humidity means that the night time temps don't drop low enough to give the temperature differential they…</p>
</div>
</div>
<p>Yep, I believe we have arrived at that stage already this year. I'll keep some tomatoes alive to root for fall planting but I don't expect much fruit for two months or more. It's darn hot. <br/> <br/> <cite>TCLynx said:</cite></p>
<div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Then again being where I live, most varieties of tomatoes just don't bloom through the heat of summer since our humidity means that the night time temps don't drop low enough to give the temperature differential they need.</p>
</div>
</div> I think much of the "phosphor…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-02:4778851:Comment:3578382012-07-02T12:35:36.524ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>I think much of the "phosphorus" thinking actually comes from hydroponics as well where many people will switch from a higher nitrogen fertilizer mix for the veg stage of growing over to a lower nitrogen/higher phosphorus nutrient along with changing lighting for the fruiting stage.</p>
<p></p>
<p>However, in Aquaponics, if you are feeding fish and they are eating well, the fish food is usually a good source of both nitrogen and phosphorus so in aquaponics we usually only have to supplement…</p>
<p>I think much of the "phosphorus" thinking actually comes from hydroponics as well where many people will switch from a higher nitrogen fertilizer mix for the veg stage of growing over to a lower nitrogen/higher phosphorus nutrient along with changing lighting for the fruiting stage.</p>
<p></p>
<p>However, in Aquaponics, if you are feeding fish and they are eating well, the fish food is usually a good source of both nitrogen and phosphorus so in aquaponics we usually only have to supplement some trace elements and potassium and if Iron lock out due to pH is an issue, chelated iron. The seaweed extract takes care of trace elements and potassium and buffering the pH usually takes care of calcium and potassium. Now exact amounts of what might be needed will vary greatly depending on the feed used for the fish and if solids get removed or not as well as the source water. There are some people who never have to use calcium carbonate as a supplement or buffer because their well water is like liquid limestone.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Then again being where I live, most varieties of tomatoes just don't bloom through the heat of summer since our humidity means that the night time temps don't drop low enough to give the temperature differential they need.</p> One of the first crops I usua…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-02:4778851:Comment:3578322012-07-02T10:26:09.806ZRupertofOZhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RupertofOZ
<p>One of the first crops I usually plant in a new system... and usually requested by clients.... are tomatoes....</p>
<p></p>
<p>And I've never had, or seen a problem.... and have posted pictures of both my own ... and other systems on this site... showing abundant tomato growth and yield.... in systems from day one...</p>
<p></p>
<p>Buffer your pH.... foliar feed with some Maxicrop periodically.... and you shouldn't have a problem with anything....</p>
<p> </p>
<p>One of the first crops I usually plant in a new system... and usually requested by clients.... are tomatoes....</p>
<p></p>
<p>And I've never had, or seen a problem.... and have posted pictures of both my own ... and other systems on this site... showing abundant tomato growth and yield.... in systems from day one...</p>
<p></p>
<p>Buffer your pH.... foliar feed with some Maxicrop periodically.... and you shouldn't have a problem with anything....</p>
<p> </p> Vlad Jovanovic said:
Yup, th…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-02:4778851:Comment:3578292012-07-02T10:21:44.181ZRupertofOZhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RupertofOZ
<p><br></br><br></br> <cite>Vlad Jovanovic said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/tomato-plants-in-the-grow-bed#4778851Comment357625"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Yup, that would seem like one of the drawbacks to an (particularly new-ish) AP systems...No fruiting plants like to (or can) flower then set fruit without adequate phosphorous and potassium. Both of which, (along with magnesium) seem notoriously lacking in new-ish AP systems...ones without the…</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br/><br/> <cite>Vlad Jovanovic said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/tomato-plants-in-the-grow-bed#4778851Comment357625"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Yup, that would seem like one of the drawbacks to an (particularly new-ish) AP systems...No fruiting plants like to (or can) flower then set fruit without adequate phosphorous and potassium. Both of which, (along with magnesium) seem notoriously lacking in new-ish AP systems...ones without the needed amendments.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Potassium is certainly a requirement for plants during fruiting/flowering/seeding stages.... and phosphorus for general growth....</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But it's just not correct to say that new systems are "notoriously lacking"... in any of the above...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Magnesium, and/or phosphate deficiencies might be seen in a lot of heavily worked and depleted soils... but are extremely rare in aquaponic systems...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Many AP systems, particularly many in the US that draw source water from bores.... often suffer from nutrient lockout due to high pH....</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And that high pH... is generally associated with "hard" water...general hardness... by definition water high in mettalic elements... particularly magnesium... along with calcium and often iron...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I've never seen an AP system of my own, or any of my clients... that has ever exhibited signs of either a phosphate or magnesium deficiency....</p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote><p>Nitrates alone don't really cut it for much other than leafy greens. So either give up on the toms, cukes, zucchini etc...for the next 6 months or so...or look into a buffering regime with some of the things that will get your system some of the plant essential elements in the quantities needed to support the growth of heavy feeding plants such as tomatoes. Potassium bi-carbonate, dolomitic lime...</p>
<p>This seems totally typical for a new AP system and not anything that you a re doing "wrong".</p>
<p> </p>
</blockquote>
<p>Yes... the system in question definitely needs some pH buffering... and would benefit from a "Potassium" boost... and perhaps a Calcium boost as well.... both vital for tomatoes to set flower/fruit....</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So applying an alternating Potassium and Calcium buffer (as above) is both beneficial.. to the pH level... and plants....killing two birds with the one stone...</p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote><p>Nitrogen in the form of ammonia is a much, much bigger problem for fruiting toms than nitrogen in the form of nitrates. Though like Johnathan says too much may not be good, but it is my belief that whatever your nitrate level...you would be OK if you had a proportionate amount of potassium and phosphate in there. The nitrate levels may be looked at as "too high", but <strong><em>only in proportion</em></strong>to the levels of potassium and phosphate. More a deficiency of the later, than too much of the former. Pretty typical if you ask me....</p>
<p> </p>
</blockquote>
<p>Not typical at all IMO.... and there's just such an ingrained "phosphorus" dependant mind set hang over from decades of soil fertilisation thinking....</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What many don't understand... is there is an inter-relationship between Phosphorus, Potassium and Calcium.... and too much Phosphorus.... can actually inhibit Potassium and/or Calcium uptake... and even a degree of other trace elements... including Magnesium....</p> Wow, yeah it sounds like you…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-02:4778851:Comment:3579142012-07-02T08:20:33.546ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Wow, yeah it sounds like you have bigger fish to fry than a tomato plant that wont bloom...</p>
<p>Like TC says, get your pH back into a readable range with any carbonate buffer of your liking...before the whole bio-filter crashes...(potassium bicarbonate might be nice, but use whatever you have on hand immediately would be even better)...</p>
<p>And speaking of frying fish...it might not be a bad idea to have a fish fry with about 2/3rds of those tilapia...or add more bio-filtration...(2…</p>
<p>Wow, yeah it sounds like you have bigger fish to fry than a tomato plant that wont bloom...</p>
<p>Like TC says, get your pH back into a readable range with any carbonate buffer of your liking...before the whole bio-filter crashes...(potassium bicarbonate might be nice, but use whatever you have on hand immediately would be even better)...</p>
<p>And speaking of frying fish...it might not be a bad idea to have a fish fry with about 2/3rds of those tilapia...or add more bio-filtration...(2 more beds like the one you have should do)...were you planning on growing all those out full size in 250 gallons?</p>
<p>If you purposely waay overstocked your system because of plants like tomatoes, cucumbers etc...don't sweat getting rid of the extra fish as they're not going to help you get what you want anyways (unless your growing them for their ornamental vegetative qualities...which you are probably not)... once your systems "rules of thumb"-type proportions are in line and you're managing your pH properly and all, and your system has matured a bit...you shouldn't have any problems growing a tomato plant that pumps out tomatoes...</p> My first thought is that it c…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-02:4778851:Comment:3578152012-07-02T03:28:20.436ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>My first thought is that it could be too hot, tomatoes often won't even bloom if it's too hot and there isn't enough of a temperature drop overnight.</p>
<p></p>
<p>New system, use some seaweed extract.</p>
<p></p>
<p>If pH is low, it could be way low, need to buffer. If pH is reading 6 on an API test kit, it could be way low below that. Need to buffer stronger than just a little tap water. Some garden lime, some potassium bicarbonate or heck in a pinch even a little baking soda but be…</p>
<p>My first thought is that it could be too hot, tomatoes often won't even bloom if it's too hot and there isn't enough of a temperature drop overnight.</p>
<p></p>
<p>New system, use some seaweed extract.</p>
<p></p>
<p>If pH is low, it could be way low, need to buffer. If pH is reading 6 on an API test kit, it could be way low below that. Need to buffer stronger than just a little tap water. Some garden lime, some potassium bicarbonate or heck in a pinch even a little baking soda but be careful with that as it will add sodium that isn't very good for the plants.</p>
<p></p>
<p>If your pH crashing down below the readable range is not the cause of the ammonia then......</p>
<p>If ammonia and nitrite are high, you have too many fish or not enough filtration, a 4" pvc pipe for more plants won't help you there. You have too many fish for the filtration you are providing, you would need to provide more filtration to feed the 4" pipe somehow. Perhaps a bin full of scrubbies and some extra aeration while the water flows through it.</p>