The Nitrogen response - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-28T16:56:39Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/the-nitrogen-response?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A263904&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHi Bob...I think by BSA, Nate…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-11-26:4778851:Comment:4192102012-11-26T23:55:11.640ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Hi Bob...I think by BSA, Nate meant Biological Surface Area...</p>
<p>Hi Bob...I think by BSA, Nate meant Biological Surface Area...</p> What does BSA stand for? Nat…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-11-26:4778851:Comment:4187652012-11-26T15:21:54.716ZBob Campbellhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/BobCampbell
<p>What does BSA stand for?<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Nate Storey said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/the-nitrogen-response?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A263806#4778851Comment263806"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Vlad, just saw that last part there- you're also correct when you say that this isn't the ideal for starting out! You want to work into low pH systems slowly and only when you have really really high system…</p>
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<p>What does BSA stand for?<br/> <br/> <cite>Nate Storey said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/the-nitrogen-response?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A263806#4778851Comment263806"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Vlad, just saw that last part there- you're also correct when you say that this isn't the ideal for starting out! You want to work into low pH systems slowly and only when you have really really high system BSA.</p>
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</blockquote> I found this interesting stud…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-03-03:4778851:Comment:3014232012-03-03T05:34:09.700ZTerri Mikkolahttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TerriMikkola
<p>I found this interesting study regarding low pH and nitrification. It certainly explains why some low pH AP systems nitrify.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC525248/">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC525248/</a> </p>
<p>Key Points</p>
<ul>
<li>The biofilm must first be established before letting the pH drop naturally</li>
<li>Adequate dissolved oxygen levels need to be maintained: Note this study used gaseous oxygen to maintain a DO of 8mg/L. There is no…</li>
</ul>
<p>I found this interesting study regarding low pH and nitrification. It certainly explains why some low pH AP systems nitrify.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC525248/">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC525248/</a> </p>
<p>Key Points</p>
<ul>
<li>The biofilm must first be established before letting the pH drop naturally</li>
<li>Adequate dissolved oxygen levels need to be maintained: Note this study used gaseous oxygen to maintain a DO of 8mg/L. There is no discussion that the high DO could have influenced the outcome of the test. Normally a DO of 2mg/L is the minimum required by aerobic bacteria.</li>
<li>The alkalinity concentration needs to be high enough to provide an inorganic carbon source for the bacteria. </li>
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<p><strong>High-Rate Nitrification at Low pH in Suspended- and Attached-Biomass Reactors</strong></p>
<div class="contrib-group fm-author">Sheldon Tarre and Michal Green<sup>*</sup></div>
<div class="fm-affl">Faculty of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Technion, Haifa, Israel</div>
<div class="fm-footnote" id="cor1"><sup>*</sup>Corresponding author. Mailing address: Faculty of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Technion, Haifa 32000, Israel. Phone: 972-4-829-3479. Fax: 972-4-829-5696. E-mail:<span class="e_id1181706"><a class="ext-reflink" href="mailto:agmgreen@tx.technion.ac.il">agmgreen@tx.technion.ac.il</a></span>.</div>
<div class="fm-pubdate">Received May 11, 2004; Accepted July 4, 2004.</div>
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<div class="fm-pubdate"><strong>ABSTRACT</strong></div>
<div class="fm-pubdate"><strong><br/></strong></div>
<div class="fm-pubdate"><strong><span>This article reports on high-rate nitrification at low pH in biofilm and suspended-biomass reactors by known chemolithotrophic bacteria. In the biofilm reactor, at low pH (4.3 ± 0.1) and low bulk ammonium concentrations (9.3 ± 3.3 mg</span><img src="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/pmc/pmcents/x2009.gif" border="0" alt=" " title=""/><span>·</span><img src="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/pmc/pmcents/x2009.gif" border="0" alt=" " title=""/><span>liter</span><sup>−1</sup><span>), a very high nitrification rate of 5.6 g of N oxidized</span><img src="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/pmc/pmcents/x2009.gif" border="0" alt=" " title=""/><span>·</span><img src="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/pmc/pmcents/x2009.gif" border="0" alt=" " title=""/><span>liter</span><sup>−1</sup><img src="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/pmc/pmcents/x2009.gif" border="0" alt=" " title=""/><span>·</span><img src="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/pmc/pmcents/x2009.gif" border="0" alt=" " title=""/><span>day</span><sup>−1</sup><span> was achieved. The specific nitrification rate (0.55 g of N</span><img src="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/pmc/pmcents/x2009.gif" border="0" alt=" " title=""/><span>·</span><img src="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/pmc/pmcents/x2009.gif" border="0" alt=" " title=""/><span>g of biomass</span><sup>−1</sup><img src="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/pmc/pmcents/x2009.gif" border="0" alt=" " title=""/><span>·</span><img src="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/pmc/pmcents/x2009.gif" border="0" alt=" " title=""/><span>day</span><sup>−1</sup><span>) was similar to values reported for nitrifying reactors at optimal pH. In the suspended-biomass reactor, the average pH was significantly lower than that in the biofilm reactor (pH 3.8 ± 0.3), and values as low as pH 3.2 were found. In addition, measurements in the suspended-biomass reactor, using isotope-labeled ammonium (</span><sup>15</sup><span>N), showed that in spite of the very low pH, biomass growth occurred with a yield of 0.1 g of biomass</span><img src="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/pmc/pmcents/x2009.gif" border="0" alt=" " title=""/><span>·</span><img src="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/pmc/pmcents/x2009.gif" border="0" alt=" " title=""/><span>g of N oxidized</span><sup>−1</sup><span>. Fluorescence in situ hybridization using existing rRNA-targeted oligonucleotide probes showed that the nitrifying bacteria were from the monophyletic genus</span><em>Nitrosomonas</em><span>, suggesting that autotrophic nitrification at low pH is more widespread than previously thought. The results presented in this paper clearly show that autotrophic nitrifying bacteria have the ability to nitrify at a high rate at low pH and in the presence of only a negligible free ammonia concentration, suggesting the presence of an efficient ammonium uptake system and the means to cope with low pH.</span></strong></div>
<div class="fm-pubdate"></div> I don't know if I would call…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-02-12:4778851:Comment:2927122012-02-12T23:42:17.670ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>I don't know if I would call worms cheap when people will pay only a few dollars for a pound of fish and they will pay $25-$35 for a pound of worms.</p>
<p>I don't know if I would call worms cheap when people will pay only a few dollars for a pound of fish and they will pay $25-$35 for a pound of worms.</p> Hi Stephen,
I would like you…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-02-12:4778851:Comment:2923232012-02-12T04:53:33.455ZSafwat Zakihttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/SafwatZaki
<p>Hi Stephen,</p>
<p>I would like you to tell us what kind of vegetables you are growing and what is the growing stage at the time of your experiment? how about the results of adding potassium to the growing system? and what is the the final nitrate level you have tested?</p>
<p>Cheers <a style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Smile.gif"/></a></p>
<p>Hi Stephen,</p>
<p>I would like you to tell us what kind of vegetables you are growing and what is the growing stage at the time of your experiment? how about the results of adding potassium to the growing system? and what is the the final nitrate level you have tested?</p>
<p>Cheers <a style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Smile.gif"/></a></p> No buzzer on the TAN figures…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-02-12:4778851:Comment:2923202012-02-12T01:37:38.344ZRupertofOZhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RupertofOZ
<p>No buzzer on the TAN figures Matthew....</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But while young seedlings principally use ammonium during initial root development stage... subsequent leaf development and plant growth is via nitrate uptake and transportation to the leaves for photosynthesis...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>With you "flow through" system... and your nitrates basically equivalent to your ammonium...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think your plants are still principally uptaking the (constantly refreshed) base level of nitrates…</p>
<p>No buzzer on the TAN figures Matthew....</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But while young seedlings principally use ammonium during initial root development stage... subsequent leaf development and plant growth is via nitrate uptake and transportation to the leaves for photosynthesis...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>With you "flow through" system... and your nitrates basically equivalent to your ammonium...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think your plants are still principally uptaking the (constantly refreshed) base level of nitrates for growth... rather than the ammonium, which while, as with the nitrates, is always present... is always being flushed through the system...</p> maybe you should add an algae…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-02-11:4778851:Comment:2918952012-02-11T20:23:15.092ZRavehttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/Rave
<p>maybe you should add an algae scrubber + vermiponics this would allow you to control the Nitrogen problems also with vermiponics potassium is never a problem... the worms are cheap and very 'hardy' to look after...</p>
<p>maybe you should add an algae scrubber + vermiponics this would allow you to control the Nitrogen problems also with vermiponics potassium is never a problem... the worms are cheap and very 'hardy' to look after...</p> From a few pages ago on the n…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-02-10:4778851:Comment:2915232012-02-10T14:24:49.170Zmatthew ferrellhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/matthewferrell
<p>From a few pages ago on the nitrogen cycle, pH and temperature both have an effect on NH3 and NH4 levels. In both cases the higher the value the more concentration of NH3 will result. A <br></br><br></br>Nate in our cold water system, vegetative plants are using far more NH4 than NO3. That being said our NH4 level has been running .3mg/L in inffluent water. Our pH and temps are low, so almost all of it (99%) is in NH4. We also have low amounts of nitrification going on since we are flow…</p>
<p>From a few pages ago on the nitrogen cycle, pH and temperature both have an effect on NH3 and NH4 levels. In both cases the higher the value the more concentration of NH3 will result. A <br/><br/>Nate in our cold water system, vegetative plants are using far more NH4 than NO3. That being said our NH4 level has been running .3mg/L in inffluent water. Our pH and temps are low, so almost all of it (99%) is in NH4. We also have low amounts of nitrification going on since we are flow through. Our nitrates are .24ish mg/l. We also do not have the ability (cost reasons) to amend.</p>
<p>Here's a fun bit of info:</p>
<p>1 gram of TAN yields 4.42 gram nitrate, and 5.93g carbon dioxide. CO2 mixed with water= carbonic acid. Alkalinity buffers against this pH drop. However ever gram of TAN that is converted to NO3 consumes 7.14 grams of alkalinity along the way. So long term you get the pH drop because your buffer is consumed, and the byproduct is acidic. And that's just in the nitrification part of the system. Remember fish also produce CO2, as do the microbes that are reducing the suspended solids. The whole system is aimed at getting to a lower pH.<br/><br/>Rupert I await for fact checking. Or buzzer...lol</p>
<p></p> It is possible that with the…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-01-10:4778851:Comment:2761902012-01-10T14:17:34.688ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>It is possible that with the initial introduction of some leca or expanded clay product you might see some pH shift due to the dust on that particular product but in general once well rinsed those products should not affect pH long term.</p>
<p></p>
<p>There are pH variations from one expanded shale/slate product to another but again that is generally due to the dust on the product when you first get it and should settle down later with good rinsing before use.</p>
<p></p>
<p>And I have to…</p>
<p>It is possible that with the initial introduction of some leca or expanded clay product you might see some pH shift due to the dust on that particular product but in general once well rinsed those products should not affect pH long term.</p>
<p></p>
<p>There are pH variations from one expanded shale/slate product to another but again that is generally due to the dust on the product when you first get it and should settle down later with good rinsing before use.</p>
<p></p>
<p>And I have to agree with those that say the bacteria don't keep the pH up. The chemical workings of the bacteria in our bio-filters will actually cause the pH to drop over time if there is no buffering present.</p>
<p></p>
<p>That buffering (usually calcium carbonate from hard source water) is something I've gained much experience with. I'm not trying to collect more rain water to help me balance things out better.</p> Thank you, I was going to put…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-01-10:4778851:Comment:2761052012-01-10T00:43:41.252ZEric Warwickhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/EricWarwick
<p>Thank you, I was going to put correlation does not equal causation in caps.<img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Grin.gif"></img> <br></br> <br></br> <cite>RupertofOZ said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/the-nitrogen-response?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A276019&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4778851Comment276019"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>It's just as well we dont have a buzzer/siren like Stephen Fry in the QI program.... it would be going off so many times in relation to your post Marc...…</p>
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<p>Thank you, I was going to put correlation does not equal causation in caps.<img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Grin.gif"/><br/> <br/> <cite>RupertofOZ said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/the-nitrogen-response?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A276019&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4778851Comment276019"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>It's just as well we dont have a buzzer/siren like Stephen Fry in the QI program.... it would be going off so many times in relation to your post Marc... that we'd need ear plugs... <a rel="nofollow" style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Grin.gif"/></a></p>
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