System startup

[Timothy P. Kelly]

Hi All,

I'm trying to get my system through startup and I'm at a loss as to what is happening with the water chemisty.The overall water volume is about 15 gallons and I've introduced just under 30 feeder goldfish in stages. I've been testing regularly with an API Master Kit and gotten pH results are high 7.8, with a just a little ammonia (.25). I've seen nothing in the way of intermediate products (nitrites), but have picked up 5.0 ppm for nitrates. I had previously "seeded" the tank with water taken for the family goldfish tank, to speed things up.

Do I need more time or more fish to get this thing up to a state where I can start growing stuff?

 

Thanks.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

The pump is on constantly and the fountain head provides for aeration. That and the outflow from the tank. I picked that unit up a Harbor Freight for about 19 bucks and it works well.

 
TCLynx said:

I would leave it alone.  The more things you mess with the slower things will tend to go.  Getting cycled up faster the only things I normally recommend are plenty of aeration and plenty of water flow (if doing timed flood and drain you might switch to constant flood for a time as in leave the pump on full time instead of using the timer.)

And here is a blog post that has info in case you need to protect your fish from nitrite.

http://www.aquaponiclynx.com/salt-for-fish-health

[Timothy P. Kelly]

TC,

Th numbers show an increase in NO2, up to 2 ppm. The ammonia is holding steady at 2 ppm. No sign of issues with the fish, though. I fed them and they are hungry and energetic. It will be interesting to see how this goes going forward.

Thanks for the references and all the help.

 TCLynx said:

I would leave it alone.  The more things you mess with the slower things will tend to go.  Getting cycled up faster the only things I normally recommend are plenty of aeration and plenty of water flow (if doing timed flood and drain you might switch to constant flood for a time as in leave the pump on full time instead of using the timer.)

And here is a blog post that has info in case you need to protect your fish from nitrite.

http://www.aquaponiclynx.com/salt-for-fish-health

[TCLynx]

OK, now here is the hard part, Resist feeding!  Wait until ammonia and nitrite are both below 1 ppm before you even think of feeding again.  Don't let the fish fool you, they will likely survive going hungry for a bit.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

TC,

I got up on Saturday and discovered that my hady-dandy fountainhead had accidently pumped about half of the water out of the tank. Luckily, I had some dechlorinated tap water on hand. Over the last three days, I've replaced 8 gallons of H2O. The thing is that when I tested this morning, even with the dilution, my nitrate level is 5 ppm and the nitrate is at least 40! Happily, the ammonia is back to .25. I fed teh critters lightly and will re-test in the morning.

I read the article of nitrite protection, but am at a loss as to here to get (according to my calculations) .64 pounds of salt in order to deactivate the nitrates.

I'll keep at it. Thanks for the advice.

T. Kelly

[TCLynx]

Timothy,

    Did you mean where to get?  And is that 0.64 pounds or 64 pounds?

Not to worry, solar pool salt or water softener salt comes in like 40 lb bags for between $5-8 each so even if you need over 60 lb, we are only talking a couple bags.  Such salt is usually the cheapest salt at the grocery store, hardware store, big box store etc.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

TC,

Her are today's numbers:

pH- 8.0

Nitrites- 5 (These are remaining high for some reason)

Ammonia- .25

Nitrate- 30 ppm (Suffered a falloff. Can't figure out how that happened).

 

The nitrates were through the roof 24 hours ago. Is table salt OK? The whole system is under 20 gallons.

 
TCLynx said:

Timothy,

    Did you mean where to get?  And is that 0.64 pounds or 64 pounds?

Not to worry, solar pool salt or water softener salt comes in like 40 lb bags for between $5-8 each so even if you need over 60 lb, we are only talking a couple bags.  Such salt is usually the cheapest salt at the grocery store, hardware store, big box store etc.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

Timothy P. Kelly said:

TC,

The calulated amount is .64 lbs.

Here are today's numbers:

pH- 8.0

Nitrites- 5 (These are remaining high for some reason)

Ammonia- .25

Nitrate- 30 ppm (Suffered a falloff. Can't figure out how that happened).

 

The nitrates were through the roof 24 hours ago. Is table salt OK? The whole system is under 20 gallons.

 
TCLynx said:

Timothy,

    Did you mean where to get?  And is that 0.64 pounds or 64 pounds?

Not to worry, solar pool salt or water softener salt comes in like 40 lb bags for between $5-8 each so even if you need over 60 lb, we are only talking a couple bags.  Such salt is usually the cheapest salt at the grocery store, hardware store, big box store etc.

[TCLynx]

Table salt is generally not recommended since if it is iodized, that is bad for the bacteria and the anti caking agents can sometimes be bad for fish too.

However, kosher non iodized salt might be ok if that is what you use.

Nitrates falling suddenly is probably just the plants got to the point where they used a bunch.  30 ppm of nitrates is just fine.  Any level of Nitrates in the orange range I think is beautiful because I can read it, anything red is just High and I can never read it well (if your plants are happy, then you have enough nitrates even if they read 0)

Nitrites staying really high is just meaning they have been off the chart, not so good.  If you have been feeding the fish, STOP.  No feeding until the nitrites get back down below 1.  And actually, with nitrites that high, you might want to think about doing a partial water change before you add the salt.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

TC,

Here are today's numbers:

pH= 8.0 (added two capfuls of vinegar- probably to little to do anything significant)

Ammonia= .25 ppm

Nitrites= .50 ppm

Nitrate= 5.0 ppm

You theorize that the nitrates are down due to plant uptake. What I'm seeing agrees with that: the cherry tomato plants are just growing like CRAZY. Can a system like this collapse? That is, can it lose its ability to function via two few fish? I've been suffering a few fatalities. The remaining fish seem healthy and active, but I have to get the pH down. I'll try a partial water change in the morning and see if that helps.

Stay tuned.

 
TCLynx said:

Table salt is generally not recommended since if it is iodized, that is bad for the bacteria and the anti caking agents can sometimes be bad for fish too.

However, kosher non iodized salt might be ok if that is what you use.

Nitrates falling suddenly is probably just the plants got to the point where they used a bunch.  30 ppm of nitrates is just fine.  Any level of Nitrates in the orange range I think is beautiful because I can read it, anything red is just High and I can never read it well (if your plants are happy, then you have enough nitrates even if they read 0)

Nitrites staying really high is just meaning they have been off the chart, not so good.  If you have been feeding the fish, STOP.  No feeding until the nitrites get back down below 1.  And actually, with nitrites that high, you might want to think about doing a partial water change before you add the salt.

[TCLynx]

It is possible that you might wind up with too few fish but you are not there yet.

Trying to bring pH down can be a cause of lots of problems.  There are many threads on the subject.  Before you go using acid or vinegar in a system with fish, we need to figure out why you pH is high.

Take a sample of your source water and let it bubble over night before you test the pH.  If you have really hard water then you need to counteract all the carbonates in that water in order to bring the pH down.  If you must deal with hard water by using acid, please do it in a separate container and let the pH stabilize before you use it in your system

If your rocks are the cause of high pH, then no amount of acid is going to fix it until you dissolve the rocks away.  To test this, put a hand full of your gravel in a glass of vinegar to see if it fizzes.  Fizzing is a sign that there is a reaction between calcium carbonate and the acid and is a bad sign.

I personally won't worry too much about the pH until after the system is cycled up.  Cycled up is when your fish can eat an appropriate amount and both ammonia and nitrite stay at 0 or almost 0.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

TC,

Here is the situation as of today:

This morning, I changed out four gallons of water for new, dechlorinated tap water and tested the sytem. The pH showed up 7.4, Ammonia tested as .25, and the nitrites and nitrates measured 0. I'm down of about ten fish from a maximum of almost 30. Concerned that my ammonia level is too low to maintain my bacteria, I dosed the system with 1/8 teaspoon of clear ammonia and got a subsequent measurement of .50 ppm. Given the low ammonia and nitrite levels, I went ahead and fed my finny livestock.

I ran a set of tests when I got home this evening and here are the results:

pH- 7.8

Ammonia- .25

Nitrites- 0

Nitrates- 0

 

The fish are lively and are eating well and the plants still appear to be growing. At least they don't appear stressed or deprived yet.

We do have hard water, but it has always tested pH neutral at the pet shop. I'll continue to read on this topic, but I'm at a loss as to what I am seeing. The nitrite/nitrate spike and crash has me particularly mystified. I  expected the nitrites and ammonia to decrease, but the loss of nitrates doesn't make sense. I saw your earlier comment on the nitrates being Ok despite a 0 reading, but I'm concerned that I'm understocked at this point.

By the way, I'm using black star granite as my growth medium. I don't think that it has had any detrimental effect on the pH.

 

I'd appreciate your and anyone else's thoughts on the pickle I'm in.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 
TCLynx said:

It is possible that you might wind up with too few fish but you are not there yet.

Trying to bring pH down can be a cause of lots of problems.  There are many threads on the subject.  Before you go using acid or vinegar in a system with fish, we need to figure out why you pH is high.

Take a sample of your source water and let it bubble over night before you test the pH.  If you have really hard water then you need to counteract all the carbonates in that water in order to bring the pH down.  If you must deal with hard water by using acid, please do it in a separate container and let the pH stabilize before you use it in your system

If your rocks are the cause of high pH, then no amount of acid is going to fix it until you dissolve the rocks away.  To test this, put a hand full of your gravel in a glass of vinegar to see if it fizzes.  Fizzing is a sign that there is a reaction between calcium carbonate and the acid and is a bad sign.

I personally won't worry too much about the pH until after the system is cycled up.  Cycled up is when your fish can eat an appropriate amount and both ammonia and nitrite stay at 0 or almost 0.

[TCLynx]

I'm not quite sure why you did a water change, those are really only appropriate if your ammonia or nitrite are high enough to be dangerous to the fish.  And by doing the water changes you are robbing your plants of the nitrates you are working to create.

And then adding ammonia to a system with fish in it is not a good idea.

Relax, be patient.  Cycling up takes time.

How many fish do you have left?

At this point I recommend just keeping an eye on test results and feeding your fish accordingly.  Don't stress about adjusting pH in the system, collect some top up water that you can adjust the pH of the top up water and have it stabilize before you use it in your system.  Don't add more ammonia to your system unless you run out of fish or you may cause yourself to run out of fish.  Feed the fish and let them feed the bacteria and the bacteria feeds the plants.  It is ok to have ammonia, nitrite and nitrate all read 0 actually if you can manage that while the plants are happy, then it means a perfectly balanced system.