System startup

[Timothy P. Kelly]

Hi All,

I'm trying to get my system through startup and I'm at a loss as to what is happening with the water chemisty.The overall water volume is about 15 gallons and I've introduced just under 30 feeder goldfish in stages. I've been testing regularly with an API Master Kit and gotten pH results are high 7.8, with a just a little ammonia (.25). I've seen nothing in the way of intermediate products (nitrites), but have picked up 5.0 ppm for nitrates. I had previously "seeded" the tank with water taken for the family goldfish tank, to speed things up.

Do I need more time or more fish to get this thing up to a state where I can start growing stuff?

 

Thanks.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

I sufferd another loss overnight. I don;t understand how they expire in small numbers and not all at once, if the water is detrimental to their health. At the current chemistry, they should be fine. I'd like to add a few fish to make sure that there is anough input to keep things happy, but I'll hold off and watch my plants for the week.

 

 

Thanks. I'll get in touch at the end of the week to let you know how things are going.

 
TCLynx said:

I'm not quite sure why you did a water change, those are really only appropriate if your ammonia or nitrite are high enough to be dangerous to the fish.  And by doing the water changes you are robbing your plants of the nitrates you are working to create.

And then adding ammonia to a system with fish in it is not a good idea.

Relax, be patient.  Cycling up takes time.

How many fish do you have left?

At this point I recommend just keeping an eye on test results and feeding your fish accordingly.  Don't stress about adjusting pH in the system, collect some top up water that you can adjust the pH of the top up water and have it stabilize before you use it in your system.  Don't add more ammonia to your system unless you run out of fish or you may cause yourself to run out of fish.  Feed the fish and let them feed the bacteria and the bacteria feeds the plants.  It is ok to have ammonia, nitrite and nitrate all read 0 actually if you can manage that while the plants are happy, then it means a perfectly balanced system.

[TCLynx]

I don't think the water is detrimental to their health.  I believe you said you started with 30 feeder goldfish right?

Well feeder goldfish are often not meant to survive long so they are the culls basically and since you are meant to be using them as food for other animals the pet stores are not to worried about selling fish that may have all sorts of deformities or genetic disorders that tend to shorten their life spans.  That isn't to say that all feeder goldfish will die young, I've had some that survived for years, but it does mean that you shouldn't panic or stress too much about feeder goldfish dieing off.  When your ammonia and nitrite both reach and stay at 0 ppm and you are feeding the remaining goldfish as much as they can eat AND if at that point your nitrates are 0ppm AND your plants show signs of Nitrogen deficiency, then it might be time to get some more fish and this time get the next step up in fish so they will be more likely to survive for you, maybe get the commets or 50 cent to $1 goldfish.

Timothy P. Kelly said:

I sufferd another loss overnight. I don;t understand how they expire in small numbers and not all at once, if the water is detrimental to their health.

[Debra Colvin]

Personally, I'd check the fish themselves for fish diseases while you do you usual eater quality checks. Feeders here are notorious for being infested with ick. if you happen to loose them all, consider getting better quality fish once things are all set, say a month along in or so.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

Deb,

Thanks. I appreciate the input and will keep an eye out for any indications of sickness.

Tim

 
Debra Colvin said:

Personally, I'd check the fish themselves for fish diseases while you do you usual eater quality checks. Feeders here are notorious for being infested with ick. if you happen to loose them all, consider getting better quality fish once things are all set, say a month along in or so.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

TC,

Prior to today, I've left the system alone (other that adding four higher-quality fish from the pet store). The plants are growing, but unevenly. On on tomato plant closest the outlet is doing better. I'm thinking of getting some drip irrigation tubing and fittings installed in order to even out the flow to the growbed.

Here are today's numbers:

pH= 8.0

Nitrites= 0.0

Nitrates= 0.0

Ammonia= .25

 

I lost five of the original small feeder fish overnight. In response to the high pH, I've dosed the system with a single teaspoon of vinegar. Also, it's been hot here, and the system is outside. I'm not sure where I am at this point. Any ideas?

 

Thanks.

 

Tim
 
TCLynx said:

I would leave it alone.  The more things you mess with the slower things will tend to go.  Getting cycled up faster the only things I normally recommend are plenty of aeration and plenty of water flow (if doing timed flood and drain you might switch to constant flood for a time as in leave the pump on full time instead of using the timer.)

And here is a blog post that has info in case you need to protect your fish from nitrite.

http://www.aquaponiclynx.com/salt-for-fish-health

[TCLynx]

What is the water temp like?  A system that small could be getting hot enough to really deplete dissolved oxygen.

You really should set up a separate tank to deal with pH adjustments to your top up water and not be dosing acids directly into the system as that often causes pH bounce and is hard on the fish, bacteria and plants.

That clear tubing running up to the grow bed could be getting filled with algae and reducing the water flow to the grow bed.  Is the bed still flooding and draining properly?

[Timothy P. Kelly]

TC,

Just lost a fish to brown blood disease, which makes no sense, given the "0" nitrite levels I have been getting. As far as the flow is concerned, everything is fine. The siphon triggers about every thirteen minutes. The system sits in a semi-shady spot on the back deck, so algae growth has not, so far, been an issue. 

Getting back to the fish, I just ran a new set of tests:

pH= 7.8

Nitrites= 0

Ammonia= .25

Nitrates= 0

 

I'll be hanged if I know where this is coming from. As you know, the API kit is supposed to be accurate. The thing is that the color I'm getting on the ammonia test is a brighter shade of yellow than the chart shows. Can it be that I'm getting an erroneous reading?

I can add a couple of gallons of dechlorinated H2O to try and imrove the conditions.
 
TCLynx said:

What is the water temp like?  A system that small could be getting hot enough to really deplete dissolved oxygen.

You really should set up a separate tank to deal with pH adjustments to your top up water and not be dosing acids directly into the system as that often causes pH bounce and is hard on the fish, bacteria and plants.

That clear tubing running up to the grow bed could be getting filled with algae and reducing the water flow to the grow bed.  Is the bed still flooding and draining properly?

[RupertofOZ]

What makes you think you lost the fish to "brown blood disease".... particularly as you have no nitrites???

[TCLynx]

If you have some one on hand that can diagnose "brown Blood disease" for certain, I expect they could also take a quick look at the system and situation and figure out why to help you fix it.

The system is in a semi shady spot but what is the water temperature?  Get a thermometer in there so you actually know.

As for the API test kits, it is possible for reagents to go bad or be faulty on rare occasion so if you are suspicious, take a water sample to the pet store (most will do water tests for you) and get a second opinion.  As for the cards, keep them out of the sun or bright light too since they can fade.  They are just a printed product so the colors are not perfect, I've seen slight variations from card to card before.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

The fish are exhibiting textbook symptoms: red on the head and at the base of the fins. All of my newer fish have it. Is it possible that I just have too few plants? I have about a half dozen tomato plants combined with few pepper plants, for lack of a better alternative.

As for the API kit, It was performing well, I think. It doesn't make sense that the reagents would all go bad. It's always been stored in a cool, shady place away from sunlight.
 
TCLynx said:

If you have some one on hand that can diagnose "brown Blood disease" for certain, I expect they could also take a quick look at the system and situation and figure out why to help you fix it.

The system is in a semi shady spot but what is the water temperature?  Get a thermometer in there so you actually know.

As for the API test kits, it is possible for reagents to go bad or be faulty on rare occasion so if you are suspicious, take a water sample to the pet store (most will do water tests for you) and get a second opinion.  As for the cards, keep them out of the sun or bright light too since they can fade.  They are just a printed product so the colors are not perfect, I've seen slight variations from card to card before.

[TCLynx]

If your Nitrates are 0 then you probably have enough plants using them up.

Nitrates don't cause brown blood disease anyway as far as I know.

Ammonia reading at .25 probably just means it is building up to that right in the fish tank, more aeration, circulation and filtration are what you do for that.

Nitrite you say 0.  So if it really is brown blood disease, then I would suspect that one re-agent might have gone bad not all of them.  And this is why I recommended getting a second test done.

However, it is possible for nitrite spikes to be short too if there is any condition that could cause temporary spikes to happen, like?  Perhaps are you turning the system off an night or something?  Or is it actually a timer system?  I had been thinking it had a siphon and the pump ran continuous but if you are turning the pump off for extended periods, that could account for some of the difficulties.

[Timothy P. Kelly]

TC,

Thanks for sticking with me on this. I appreciate it.

The system runs 24-7 and I was under the impression that the fountain would be providing the proper amount of aeration, along with the discharge from the siphon. I haven't checked the fish today, but I'm not confident of the outcome.

I can lay my hands on an aerator today.

Back later.
 
TCLynx said:

If your Nitrates are 0 then you probably have enough plants using them up.

Nitrates don't cause brown blood disease anyway as far as I know.

Ammonia reading at .25 probably just means it is building up to that right in the fish tank, more aeration, circulation and filtration are what you do for that.

Nitrite you say 0.  So if it really is brown blood disease, then I would suspect that one re-agent might have gone bad not all of them.  And this is why I recommended getting a second test done.

However, it is possible for nitrite spikes to be short too if there is any condition that could cause temporary spikes to happen, like?  Perhaps are you turning the system off an night or something?  Or is it actually a timer system?  I had been thinking it had a siphon and the pump ran continuous but if you are turning the pump off for extended periods, that could account for some of the difficulties.