Should top layer of expanded shale be damp? - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-29T08:12:48Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/should-top-layer-of-expanded-shale-be-damp?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A392659&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThank you all, I put back in…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-09-19:4778851:Comment:3937272012-09-19T01:28:48.334Zbcphttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/bcp
<p>Thank you all, I put back in the original stand pipes then dug a small hole and watched it fill. The water stops about an inch and a half from the top of the shale. But the top of the expanded shale looks wet. I think Rob Torcellini is correct that expandable shale wicks very well. I'll just leave it alone for now and see if I have any problems with algae down the road.</p>
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<p>Thank you all, I put back in the original stand pipes then dug a small hole and watched it fill. The water stops about an inch and a half from the top of the shale. But the top of the expanded shale looks wet. I think Rob Torcellini is correct that expandable shale wicks very well. I'll just leave it alone for now and see if I have any problems with algae down the road.</p>
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<p></p> Agreed Chuck, in reality very…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-09-18:4778851:Comment:3933032012-09-18T14:49:18.147ZRupertofOZhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RupertofOZ
<p>Agreed Chuck, in reality very few people probably encounter the problem these days.... as it's become accepted to maintain the flood level 1" .. at least... below the media...</p>
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<p>The most often occassions when it may be seen... is when people splash, or dump the water into the grow bed above the level of the media...</p>
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<p>Rather than as a result of actually flooding too high...</p>
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<p>Or because of root ball development underneath a grow bed inlet... or in…</p>
<p>Agreed Chuck, in reality very few people probably encounter the problem these days.... as it's become accepted to maintain the flood level 1" .. at least... below the media...</p>
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<p>The most often occassions when it may be seen... is when people splash, or dump the water into the grow bed above the level of the media...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Rather than as a result of actually flooding too high...</p>
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<p>Or because of root ball development underneath a grow bed inlet... or in root bound beds due to long term heavy root system plants... i.e tomatoes....and thus subsequent water "pooling"...</p>
<p> </p> I wonder how many have actual…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-09-18:4778851:Comment:3930552012-09-18T14:27:45.071ZChuck Goeckehttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/ChuckGoecke
<p>I wonder how many have actually had a problem with algae and moss growth? I only recall seeing algae and moss being a problem in one of our(my former company's) propagation greenhouse and then only on the large stock plants that were used for cuttings for propagation. They were in potting soil, and were just old old plants, multiple years old. We got algae, moss or liverworts growing on various plants, as well as fern babies and a couple of higher plant weeds that always vexed us, like…</p>
<p>I wonder how many have actually had a problem with algae and moss growth? I only recall seeing algae and moss being a problem in one of our(my former company's) propagation greenhouse and then only on the large stock plants that were used for cuttings for propagation. They were in potting soil, and were just old old plants, multiple years old. We got algae, moss or liverworts growing on various plants, as well as fern babies and a couple of higher plant weeds that always vexed us, like oxalis and a ferny looking Pilea. The bigger weed plants we just had to pull, but the algae and moss just needed the soil surface to be raked and broken up. <br/>I would suspect that in a grow bed, where you are re-cropping every few to maybe 6 months, there would not be time for the kind of algae/moss crust to form. If you had red wiggler worms in the bed, they would eat the moss/algae. If you did start seeing some green on the surface, simply raking and disturbing the surface, between your plants would solve the problem. <br/>I'm all for getting maximum filtration usage out of the medium, which would mean flooding as high as possible, as long as this doesn't adversely effect your crop. If you are having problems with damping off and other stem rot fungi, like Phytophora, that is probably a combination problem with too much humidity and too much/frequent water. If it is very humid, decrease the flood frequency, and level, if possible.</p>
<p></p> All of my beds are filled wit…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-09-18:4778851:Comment:3929902012-09-18T12:08:05.305ZRob Torcellinihttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RobTorcellini
<p>All of my beds are filled with expanded shale and they flood to about 1 inch of the surface. The shale stays damp all the time and has not been a problem and have not had any algae growth. I did have one set down to have the water level about 3 inches below the surface and the shale was a bit drier, but not by much....it just wicks really well!</p>
<p>All of my beds are filled with expanded shale and they flood to about 1 inch of the surface. The shale stays damp all the time and has not been a problem and have not had any algae growth. I did have one set down to have the water level about 3 inches below the surface and the shale was a bit drier, but not by much....it just wicks really well!</p> @ Sterling, i think Rupert wa…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-09-18:4778851:Comment:3929872012-09-18T12:04:41.865ZRob Nashhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RobNash
<p>@ Sterling, i think Rupert was only referring to "getting water to the smaller plants" not so much about the effect on temp or evaporation. ...i hear what your saying, it would seam best to avoid the top layer of the media in the hot months to keep from heating up the water.</p>
<p>...i have noticed the water getting hot if it makes contact with the very top layer of gravel, but gravel/media does not transfer heat as much as one may think. ...i would be more concerned about the temp of the…</p>
<p>@ Sterling, i think Rupert was only referring to "getting water to the smaller plants" not so much about the effect on temp or evaporation. ...i hear what your saying, it would seam best to avoid the top layer of the media in the hot months to keep from heating up the water.</p>
<p>...i have noticed the water getting hot if it makes contact with the very top layer of gravel, but gravel/media does not transfer heat as much as one may think. ...i would be more concerned about the temp of the water than evaporation. in my experience, within one inch is ok</p>
<p>I'm starting to build my media beds at 16" ...that gives room for 14" of media and thus 12"-13" of wet/root zone...the 12" sides only allow me to have about 9"-10" of media and 6-8" of wet.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>PS - leaving today to go to Denver, my wife and I are going fly fishing before the conference. see y'all there! <a style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Grin.gif"/></a><a style="cursor: pointer;"></a></p> Sterling Peyton Jr said:
Rup…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-09-18:4778851:Comment:3930472012-09-18T03:37:19.216ZRupertofOZhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RupertofOZ
<p><br></br><br></br> <cite>Sterling Peyton Jr said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/should-top-layer-of-expanded-shale-be-damp?page=1&commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A392953&x=1#4778851Comment392953"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>RupertofOZ - Your logic seems backwards to me. In a hot zone, I would reduce my flood height to reduce evaporation. </p>
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<p>The plants can go lower for water. You do want to maximize your media…</p>
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<p><br/><br/> <cite>Sterling Peyton Jr said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/should-top-layer-of-expanded-shale-be-damp?page=1&commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A392953&x=1#4778851Comment392953"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>RupertofOZ - Your logic seems backwards to me. In a hot zone, I would reduce my flood height to reduce evaporation. </p>
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<p>The plants can go lower for water. You do want to maximize your media surfaces to allow more bacteria area to convert your ammonia and nitrite.</p>
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<p>Firstly, the vast majority of any water lose in a planted aquaponics system... is via transpiration from plant leaves...</p>
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<p>Not from direct evaporation....</p>
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<p>But evaporation from the grow bed surface can certainly be increased in an unplanted, or newly planted grow bed...</p>
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<p>Certainly once a seed, or seedling has developed... the tap root can extend downwards into any water zone...</p>
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<p>But in the early stage of growth... and with many plants.... the early root development is very close to the surface of the media... and an "unwatered" hot surface zone can easily burn off a young seedling, or stop germination of sown seed...</p>
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<p>This is a reason for actually employing a "constant flood" regime for newly transplanted seedlings... or direct sown seed...</p>
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<p>Secondly... the nitrifying bacteria populate the myriad of "holes" on a media surface... within the thin film of water held by surface tension....</p>
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<p>Obviously, for them to convert the ammonia, and subsequent nitrites...in the water... to nitrates within the water, for our plants to feed upon... they need to be in contact with the water...</p>
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<p>Effectively... any "unwatered"... or "unwicked" dry zone... is essentially unoccupied by the nitrifying bacteria....</p>
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<p>The raised temperature of the "unwatered"/"unwicked" media in itself.. would probably inhibit, or kill any bacterial colony in itself...</p>
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<p>Thirdly... plants, and the bacteria... derive the vast majority of their oxygen intake... through the root systems, via water osmotic transfer...</p>
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<p>Fourthly... the more the media heats, and transfers heat to the water... the less dissolved oxygen is available to both fish and plant processess....</p>
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<p>The only reason we don't flood to the actual surface of the media itself... is that the UV exposure of the nutrient rich water... would develope algae, or moss... which then coats the surface of the media bed....</p>
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<p>And limits the draw of oxygen through the grow bed... to the detrement of both fish and plants...</p>
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<p>And the algae or moss actually draw oxygen from the system itself for their own processes....</p>
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<p>As you say...</p>
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<blockquote>You do want to maximize your media surfaces to allow more bacteria area to convert your ammonia and nitrite. <p> </p>
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<p>There is just no benefit in reducing your filtration capacity...and/or oxygenation potential... by not flooding to the highest level possible within the media.... as long as it doesn't invoke algael/moss growth...</p>
<p> </p> RupertofOZ - Your logic seem…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-09-17:4778851:Comment:3929532012-09-17T21:48:37.876ZSterling Peyton Jrhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/SterlingPeytonJr
<p>RupertofOZ - Your logic seems backwards to me. In a hot zone, I would reduce my flood height to reduce evaporation. The plants can go lower for water. You do want to maximize your media surfaces to allow more bacteria area to convert your ammonia and nitrite. </p>
<p>bcp - I hope you are understanding us. We are talking about an 11 inch stand pipe in the siphon vs an 10 inch. You seem to be talking about 3 heights.</p>
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<p>RupertofOZ - Your logic seems backwards to me. In a hot zone, I would reduce my flood height to reduce evaporation. The plants can go lower for water. You do want to maximize your media surfaces to allow more bacteria area to convert your ammonia and nitrite. </p>
<p>bcp - I hope you are understanding us. We are talking about an 11 inch stand pipe in the siphon vs an 10 inch. You seem to be talking about 3 heights.</p>
<p></p> Thank you all for your advice…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-09-17:4778851:Comment:3926692012-09-17T11:27:18.052Zbcphttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/bcp
<p>Thank you all for your advice. I cut new stand pipes 1" shorter and put them in last night. So far the top hasn't dried up. I'll give it another day and see. I can cut new pipes 2" shorter if that doesn't do it but that may be too short for the siphons to work. I can play around with it during cycling. With the 1" shorter pipes the siphons kick in a lot more so that's good.</p>
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<p>Thank you all for your advice. I cut new stand pipes 1" shorter and put them in last night. So far the top hasn't dried up. I'll give it another day and see. I can cut new pipes 2" shorter if that doesn't do it but that may be too short for the siphons to work. I can play around with it during cycling. With the 1" shorter pipes the siphons kick in a lot more so that's good.</p>
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<p></p> In the same article Sylvia st…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-09-17:4778851:Comment:3926592012-09-17T07:03:09.558ZRupertofOZhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RupertofOZ
<p>In the same article Sylvia states...in relation to "flood & drain" systems... (although she illustrates an "ebb & flow" system)</p>
<blockquote>so that the top one inch of the grow bed will be left dry</blockquote>
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<p>Probably depends a little on the media, and capillary action... and certainly relates to temperature...</p>
<p>But the only real reaquirement is that the level is below the surface of the media... to discourage and algae, or moss growth...</p>
<p>Personally, I…</p>
<p>In the same article Sylvia states...in relation to "flood & drain" systems... (although she illustrates an "ebb & flow" system)</p>
<blockquote>so that the top one inch of the grow bed will be left dry</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Probably depends a little on the media, and capillary action... and certainly relates to temperature...</p>
<p>But the only real reaquirement is that the level is below the surface of the media... to discourage and algae, or moss growth...</p>
<p>Personally, I think 1" is sufficient... and it was originally suggested as such...</p>
<p>Don't know why Murray would have recommended 2"... especially in a warm/hot climate such as Australia...</p> I don't know where this 2" su…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-09-17:4778851:Comment:3928132012-09-17T00:31:07.617ZRupertofOZhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RupertofOZ
<p>I don't know where this 2" suggestion has come from....</p>
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<p>It's always been suggested to flood to within 1" of the surface in the past.... particularly during summer, or for those in hot climates..</p>
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<p>And partucularly if you're intending to direct sow seed...</p>
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<p>Obviously some media wicks better than others... and generally the surface shouldn't be too damp... so flood height might need to be altered according to media...</p>
<p>I don't know where this 2" suggestion has come from....</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's always been suggested to flood to within 1" of the surface in the past.... particularly during summer, or for those in hot climates..</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And partucularly if you're intending to direct sow seed...</p>
<p></p>
<p>Obviously some media wicks better than others... and generally the surface shouldn't be too damp... so flood height might need to be altered according to media...</p>