Replacement for Hydroton? - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-29T09:50:45Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/replacement-for-hydroton?feed=yes&xn_auth=noThanks so much for the info! …tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-02-10:4778851:Comment:4373652013-02-10T14:00:22.900ZSteve Stallardhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/SteveStallard
<p>Thanks so much for the info! I just posted a question 2 days ago asking if anyone had heard of this very product! I was considering using it in my indoor media bed (also on a wooden floor), and was hopeful because I wanted use it instead of the (heavier) river rock. Great to hear you've had success with it. Would you recommend using this on top of something else? I was just thinking of just filling my media bed with this material alone.</p>
<p>Thanks so much for the info! I just posted a question 2 days ago asking if anyone had heard of this very product! I was considering using it in my indoor media bed (also on a wooden floor), and was hopeful because I wanted use it instead of the (heavier) river rock. Great to hear you've had success with it. Would you recommend using this on top of something else? I was just thinking of just filling my media bed with this material alone.</p> Yeah...what Vlad said :)tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-12-16:4778851:Comment:4234752012-12-16T15:41:32.357ZJon Parrhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/JonParr
Yeah...what Vlad said :)
Yeah...what Vlad said :) ...What Jon said
I guess to t…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-12-13:4778851:Comment:4227142012-12-13T11:35:48.500ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>...What Jon said<img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Grin.gif"></img></p>
<p>I guess to that wonderful explanation I'll just add that our divalent cations are pretty much all base metals...being base metals, they dissolve and/or dissociate from complexes into their natural oxidation state (which is +2) much better in an acidic environment. This +2 state happens to be the 'plant available form' of such elements. This is a big reason why plants do better at lower pH ranges (5 to say 6.5) than at higher ones. Also, base metal cations,…</p>
<p>...What Jon said<img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Grin.gif"/></p>
<p>I guess to that wonderful explanation I'll just add that our divalent cations are pretty much all base metals...being base metals, they dissolve and/or dissociate from complexes into their natural oxidation state (which is +2) much better in an acidic environment. This +2 state happens to be the 'plant available form' of such elements. This is a big reason why plants do better at lower pH ranges (5 to say 6.5) than at higher ones. Also, base metal cations, at higher pH ranges (above neutral) will want to form complexes with other things floating around in the AP water...Like phosphates or carbonates...Here's an example. CaCO3 at an acidic pH will dissociate to plant usable Ca2+ and some CO2 gas...a good thing right? But as should the pH rise, it (the Ca2+) will form complexes and precipitate out of solution (not good, and not plant available...bad).</p>
<p>These complexes most often come in the form of phosphate or carbonate complexes. That same Ca2+ will form a whitish grey precipitate called calcium phosphate (CaPO4). (This is just one of <em>many</em> such complexes that may form). And it's not just calcium, but iron, magnesium, zinc, potassium...again pretty much all of the divalent base metals will do this to a greater or lesser degree. The lower the pH, the more of those elements that will be in solution (dissolved in a +2 state and hence plant usable) instead of floating around in a 'big' clunky complex molecule that a plant cannot absorb/use.</p> Thanks for the informative an…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-12-13:4778851:Comment:4229162012-12-13T08:40:32.963ZRoger Baldwinhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RogerBaldwin
Thanks for the informative answer. Now I have questions about hard top-up water... But I will save that for another thread
Thanks for the informative answer. Now I have questions about hard top-up water... But I will save that for another thread Roger, there are a lot of que…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-12-13:4778851:Comment:4227072012-12-13T04:33:53.136ZJon Parrhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/JonParr
<p>Roger, there are a lot of questions that don't have direct answers, and most anything involving pH is one of those topics. Why 6.2? Because the plants, most plants, want and need a low pH. It would be better to have a pH of 5.2 than 6.2, for the availability of nutrients, but we are limited to the realm above 5.5 for the sake of the bacteria. In soil, there exists micro-pockets of various pH ranges, depending on the bacteria, minerals, and "foods" present. This soil pH diversity makes soil…</p>
<p>Roger, there are a lot of questions that don't have direct answers, and most anything involving pH is one of those topics. Why 6.2? Because the plants, most plants, want and need a low pH. It would be better to have a pH of 5.2 than 6.2, for the availability of nutrients, but we are limited to the realm above 5.5 for the sake of the bacteria. In soil, there exists micro-pockets of various pH ranges, depending on the bacteria, minerals, and "foods" present. This soil pH diversity makes soil much less of a concern to regulate pH, because the plant roots can locate optimum zones for what it needs. However, in water things are much more homogenized, and it is really a fairly narrow range of suitable pH for great plant production, especially those plants that pull the heavy nutrients. Lettuce can grow in tap water, and so can strawberries. In like reasoning, carnivorous plants want extremely soft water, like rain water or distilled water. They get their minerals from bugs, not soil, and this adaptation lets them grow in swamps where other plants can not. I run my systems now at 6.0 to 6.4, and if I'm lucky, it stays in this range with no extra inputs. Nitrification pulls it down to 6.0, and hard water lifts it to 6.4, if I had an auto-fill hooked up (soon), then I would guess I would hover at 6.2 Why walk the tight rope? Well, I suppose I agree with Vlad, I don't consider the chore a headache. I used to not care what my pH was, and was quite lucky for the first year. I never checked it, and everything grew great. But as the water passed it's one year birthday old my pH rose until it glued to 8.3</p>
<p>Why 8.3? Funny you should ask, and I wondered too. When I first realized it was high pH that was causing my poor plant growth and deficiencies, I started adding acid, and next day it was back to 8.3. This happened dozens of times, even when I'd get pissed and dump way too much acid. I once dropped it instantly from 8.3 to 4.5, not smart. The tilapia didn't seem to notice, but the pangasius thought it was nuclear holocaust. Next day, back to 8.3</p>
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<p>Which brings us to your alkaline media. If you could find a blend of minerals that held a pH of 7.5, and your top up water was pretty neutral, then you might have a great time. The trouble is that most hardness is caused by CaCO3, and CaCO3 has a pH of 8.3. It will forever attempt to raise the pH to 8.3, and will do so until enough acid is added to dissolve it all. If pH rises above 8.3 somehow, then the CaCO3 will precipitate out as solid (limestone), where it will hang out forever until pH lowers and dissolves it again. That is one reason that CaCO3 is a good, safe buffer, because it cannot raise above 8.3. CaOH on the other hand, can nuke your pH to the moon. </p>
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<p>So, can you add Ca and Mg without increasing pH? Yes, by using divalent ion salts (Fe, Ca, Mg) which do affect GH, but not KH or pH. And by adding fish food that contains a good blend of minerals including Ca and Mg, which is much more simple. If you start with good water, and keep your pH in the low 6's, and feed your fish plenty of healthy, diverse foods, you shouldn't have a deficiency. IMO. Oh yeah, one more thing. Fish do fine at a pH of 6.0 as long as it is stable and the water has decent hardness.</p> Talk about walking a tight ro…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-12-13:4778851:Comment:4226612012-12-13T01:24:08.978ZRoger Baldwinhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RogerBaldwin
Talk about walking a tight rope... Why run a system so low? Doesn't that endanger the bacteria and the fish?<br />
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Divalent cations... So you would need to supply calcium and magnesium in forms that didn't increase the pH further? Any suggestions?
Talk about walking a tight rope... Why run a system so low? Doesn't that endanger the bacteria and the fish?<br />
<br />
Divalent cations... So you would need to supply calcium and magnesium in forms that didn't increase the pH further? Any suggestions? Nope ,they don't mind enough…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-12-13:4778851:Comment:4226552012-12-13T00:10:55.041ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Nope ,they don't mind enough for it to matter (as long as you have plenty of the divalent cations that tend to start to get locked out at higher pH levels present in solution). Having a bit of media that doubles as a slight buffer is indeed a keen thing. But media with a pH of 8 or 9 would be a horror. Honestly, I plan on running the new system, long term, at a pH of about 6.2. One the bacterial colony is very firmly established. </p>
<p>I think Rob Nash uses about 30% carbonate containing…</p>
<p>Nope ,they don't mind enough for it to matter (as long as you have plenty of the divalent cations that tend to start to get locked out at higher pH levels present in solution). Having a bit of media that doubles as a slight buffer is indeed a keen thing. But media with a pH of 8 or 9 would be a horror. Honestly, I plan on running the new system, long term, at a pH of about 6.2. One the bacterial colony is very firmly established. </p>
<p>I think Rob Nash uses about 30% carbonate containing media on purpose, for the reasons you described (and I'm sure there are others). I'm sure it might make things less hands on as far as fiddling with buffering goes. But, I don't see buffering as a 'headache' <img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Smile.gif"/> <span><br/></span></p>
<p>I want to run my system at a lower pH than what is generally sold as the "ideal" pH for an AP system though.</p> Why would it be such a bad th…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-12-12:4778851:Comment:4227012012-12-12T23:08:44.079ZRoger Baldwinhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RogerBaldwin
Why would it be such a bad thing to have media that was a little basic, say 7.5 or so? It seems that everyone is fighting to keep there pH up after a system has aged a little, so why not make a buffer intrinsic to the system? I realize that it is walking a tight rope so to say, so one needs to be carefull, but it could save some head ache in the long run. Anyway, according to some of your posts Vlad (and I agree)the plants don't seem to mind a little higher pH.
Why would it be such a bad thing to have media that was a little basic, say 7.5 or so? It seems that everyone is fighting to keep there pH up after a system has aged a little, so why not make a buffer intrinsic to the system? I realize that it is walking a tight rope so to say, so one needs to be carefull, but it could save some head ache in the long run. Anyway, according to some of your posts Vlad (and I agree)the plants don't seem to mind a little higher pH. Yeah, I wasn't gonna say anyt…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-12-12:4778851:Comment:4225712012-12-12T18:57:25.218ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Yeah, I wasn't gonna say anything, but watch the pH of construction/concrete/drainage grade LECA. The stuff I saw here from the former producers of hydroton says pH 6.5 to 9. That's quite a range. The type and quality of clay used will determine pH and heavy metal content...That type of quality control (or lack of) is why the new owners of the company that makes hydroton supposedly had a falling out over, and hence it's not being made anymore...(The other side of the story is that a couple…</p>
<p>Yeah, I wasn't gonna say anything, but watch the pH of construction/concrete/drainage grade LECA. The stuff I saw here from the former producers of hydroton says pH 6.5 to 9. That's quite a range. The type and quality of clay used will determine pH and heavy metal content...That type of quality control (or lack of) is why the new owners of the company that makes hydroton supposedly had a falling out over, and hence it's not being made anymore...(The other side of the story is that a couple of the partners were wanting to edge into the more lucrative horticultural division of the business using clay from the new mine in Slovakia, or Czech Republic...I still get the two mixed up sometimes...) At any rate taking a number of 'acid fizz test samples' would be a most prudent idea...</p> Expanded clay, lava, basalt,…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-12-12:4778851:Comment:4224612012-12-12T18:00:17.985ZJon Parrhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/JonParr
Expanded clay, lava, basalt, shale, etc. is pretty much the same thing as long as its pH inert. They melt it all into lava to make it anyway. I'll call my local batch plant.
Expanded clay, lava, basalt, shale, etc. is pretty much the same thing as long as its pH inert. They melt it all into lava to make it anyway. I'll call my local batch plant.