Plumbing Buried

[Farcry305]

Why is it that i cant find  system plumbing like mine? I have my pluming going out of the bottom of media beds using a bell siphon constant flood and drain.(pump never turns off) I have the plumbing go under the ground. its  about 2 ft below the media bed then goes to a 90 degree and it runs horizontal about 8 ft over to the DWC then 90 deg up about 20 inches and finally 90 deg to dump in DWC/sump. 

The bad thing is when i break the siphon i have to re prime it but it sure beats walking over pipes.

Why is it that i see every flood and drain with one on top of the other?

Or long runs of pipe to walk around?

\Thanks in advance

[TCLynx]

It just happens to be a diagram that already existed as I didn't have time the other day to make a new diagram.

[TCLynx]

Maybe this one will make more sense.

TCLynx said:

It just happens to be a diagram that already existed as I didn't have time the other day to make a new diagram.

[Rob Nash]

Farcy, if the bell is floating etc.. its not really working correctly.. when the "tail pipe" or drain is open and not traping air, bell siphons go on and off like clock work, with no help or tricky plumbing etc.

TC is right on the money with the "open" drain pipe, this is how i do it.

when going over, or through a side wall, the air lock that is created will keep a siphon from working correctly...

by leaving the pipe unglued, it will allow air to escape each time the siphon stops... if not, the siphon wont stop.

 be sure to leave some room for the water to splash inside the pipe...otherwise it can geyser a little bit of water out each time the siphon stops.. i make my pipe bigger... here is a pic..

the 4" pipe is for the grow bed's tail pipe to drain into the drain pipe,it is not glued to the tail pipe under the bed... this allows air to escape.   ...its  exactly like TC's  drawing... except i go through the side wall, not over it.

[Jim Fisk]

Hi Farcy,

If your bell occasionally "floats" but all else works fine just add some weight to it. (Kiss)

If your siphon is having "break" problems just add a "T" in your drain line for a vent which should end at the height of your media surface. Just like household plumbing. Without a vent at every sink all your drain traps would empty every time they siphon and your house would stink of sewer gas. Not sure where the mystery of vents in AP started. Ask any plumber. Been plumbing for 45 years. KISS. That drain line must be vented. How you do it is up to you. I use the standard plumbing method 101 and it works perfectly. Even a 1/2" vent will do as air is a bit thinner than water. Personally I want my drain vents where I can see them and watch for things like fungus gnats or sewer drain flies. You will be visited eventually by these little but very prolific pests.

I don't want to start a vent method war here but I assure you a simple "T" and a couple feet of 1/2" or in my case 1" pipe will cost a lot less than Rob's 4" pipe and expensive adapters, open drain method and it is easier to keep an eye on. Using Rob's pic here is what I mean, a "T" and a 90 will do it:

Bring the vent up anywhere you like.

[TCLynx]

There are of course many ways to skin a catfish.

Jim it's not that a vent is a mystery to aquaponics, it is that some people doing aquaponics just simply are not plumbers and have no experience with things like vents (there are people out there who don't know that there are vents on the drain plumbing in their homes.)

Vents are a good idea often even if you are not doing siphons.

Above is how I vent the drain lines when I plumb in my 100 gallon stock tank grow beds.  This is not a siphon bed through.  I run timed flood and drain with indexing valves on most of my media beds currently.

Below is a look at a drain out of the bottom of one of my rail and liner beds.  The 1 1/2" pipe out of the bottom of the bed is just a few inches down into the 3" shared drain pipe and they are not sealed together in any way.

[Farcry305]

Yes ma'am i im absolutely pickin up what you are throwing down on your revised pic.  But that will only work  if the water exit is low enough at the sump for the flow to start, or the larger piece after the stand pipe exit (4in pipe) goes up higher than drawn. I mean no disrespect Tc.  I know you answer a million questions a day I just want to help anyone who reads this post 10 years from now.

TCLynx said:

Maybe this one will make more sense.

TCLynx said:

It just happens to be a diagram that already existed as I didn't have time the other day to make a new diagram.

[Farcry305]

Rob thanks. like the set up mine does stop just fine . I use a breather hose like Murray.  

Rob Nash said:

Farcy, if the bell is floating etc.. its not really working correctly.. when the "tail pipe" or drain is open and not traping air, bell siphons go on and off like clock work, with no help or tricky plumbing etc.

TC is right on the money with the "open" drain pipe, this is how i do it.

when going over, or through a side wall, the air lock that is created will keep a siphon from working correctly...

by leaving the pipe unglued, it will allow air to escape each time the siphon stops... if not, the siphon wont stop.

 be sure to leave some room for the water to splash inside the pipe...otherwise it can geyser a little bit of water out each time the siphon stops.. i make my pipe bigger... here is a pic..

the 4" pipe is for the grow bed's tail pipe to drain into the drain pipe,it is not glued to the tail pipe under the bed... this allows air to escape.   ...its  exactly like TC's  drawing... except i go through the side wall, not over it.

[Farcry305]

Going to video and try to post tomorrow.

Ok about 1 am now on Saturday and iv been drinking so now ill stop typing and just keep reading. Thanks all ! lol 

[Farcry305]

Jim cant add weight . If it doesn't float it wont start. Air will remain trapped in the bell and will not let water raise high enough to go down stand pipe . Thanks,  If im wrong reply to comment above.

Jim Fisk said:

Hi Farcy,

If your bell occasionally "floats" but all else works fine just add some weight to it. (Kiss)

If your siphon is having "break" problems just add a "T" in your drain line for a vent which should end at the height of your media surface. Just like household plumbing. Without a vent at every sink all your drain traps would empty every time they siphon and your house would stink of sewer gas. Not sure where the mystery of vents in AP started. Ask any plumber. Been plumbing for 45 years. KISS. That drain line must be vented. How you do it is up to you. I use the standard plumbing method 101 and it works perfectly. Even a 1/2" vent will do as air is a bit thinner than water. Personally I want my drain vents where I can see them and watch for things like fungus gnats or sewer drain flies. You will be visited eventually by these little but very prolific pests.

I don't want to start a vent method war here but I assure you a simple "T" and a couple feet of 1/2" or in my case 1" pipe will cost a lot less than Rob's 4" pipe and expensive adapters, open drain method and it is easier to keep an eye on. Using Rob's pic here is what I mean, a "T" and a 90 will do it:

Bring the vent up anywhere you like.

[Jim Fisk]

Hey Farcry, (sorry missed the cry part above:-)

It floats due to back pressure which will go away as soon as you give it someplace else to go. Namely a vent. That air will compress in the drain line otherwise and lift your bell. Can you cut a hole in the side of the sump just above water level? That could help you a bunch. That up and over can be a tough battle unless you start well above it. Have you tried the weight? Don't let AP drive you to drink

Hi TC. I know. Thank you. Getting cranky in my old age. Been doing all my own plumbing and electric since I built my first dark room at age 10. That's 56 yrs ago. It just gets frustrating as we repeat the same messages or advice over and over. Big problem with forums in general. Advice seems to disappear into the vastness and search never seems to work right. Borders on a joke in my experience. I am thinking of keeping a list of common answers to common questions and just cut and paste. (and you should do the same for sure) It would be interesting to keep a count and when a question reaches say a 10 it should make it into a Q&A page that could become an AP bible of sorts. I realize we have such a page here, sort of, but I don't remember "Vents" being on the list, just as an example. Perhaps good advice to anyone plumbing more than 1 ibc (a common drain) should be to go to the big box store and purchase the cheapest "Plumbing 101" book on the shelf. Would be a good starting place for sure. Vents are to plumbing what grounds are to electric. The first thing they teach you. Well, right after "sh%t runs down hill"

[TCLynx]

If the water level in the pipe is right up at the bottom of the grow bed, then your only possible hope might be a vent like Jim shows.  However, with no fall below the grow bed to allow the siphon to get going, I rather doubt you are going to get the siphon to work adequately.

Yes, if the top of the "sump" is right at the height of the bottom of the grow bed, my method of the air gap is not going to work since water will find it's own level.  For siphons to work, heights and flow rates are important.  For siphons to work, YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO ADJUST THE FLOW INTO THE BED AND THERE NEEDS TO BE ENOUGH FALL BELOW THE BED FOR THE SIPHON TO WORK.  If you didn't leave enough height for the drains and siphon to work properly, you may need to be content with constant flow/constant flood or switch to timed flood and drain.  Or perhaps you can clear out enough space in the bed to install a FLOUT.

[Farcry305]

Not weight but a cap on rock guard ..it wouldnt let the bell float up the inch or so it needed to start the flow 

Jim Fisk said:

Hey Farcry, (sorry missed the cry part above:-)

It floats due to back pressure which will go away as soon as you give it someplace else to go. Namely a vent. That air will compress in the drain line otherwise and lift your bell. Can you cut a hole in the side of the sump just above water level? That could help you a bunch. That up and over can be a tough battle unless you start well above it. Have you tried the weight? Don't let AP drive you to drink

Hi TC. I know. Thank you. Getting cranky in my old age. Been doing all my own plumbing and electric since I built my first dark room at age 10. That's 56 yrs ago. It just gets frustrating as we repeat the same messages or advice over and over. Big problem with forums in general. Advice seems to disappear into the vastness and search never seems to work right. Borders on a joke in my experience. I am thinking of keeping a list of common answers to common questions and just cut and paste. (and you should do the same for sure) It would be interesting to keep a count and when a question reaches say a 10 it should make it into a Q&A page that could become an AP bible of sorts. I realize we have such a page here, sort of, but I don't remember "Vents" being on the list, just as an example. Perhaps good advice to anyone plumbing more than 1 ibc (a common drain) should be to go to the big box store and purchase the cheapest "Plumbing 101" book on the shelf. Would be a good starting place for sure. Vents are to plumbing what grounds are to electric. The first thing they teach you. Well, right after "sh%t runs down hill"