pH Mystery - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-29T02:04:58Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/ph-mystery?x=1&id=4778851%3ATopic%3A353387&feed=yes&xn_auth=noJust a little surface algae o…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-09:4778851:Comment:3811962012-08-09T02:14:31.067ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>Just a little surface algae on the sides of the tank is usually not enough of a problem to really worry too much about.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Putting a lid or cover over a tank but propping it up so it will shade the tank while still allowing good air flow may actually keep things cooler than leaving the covers off completely. Definitely don't seal the lids down to block the air flow.</p>
<p>Just a little surface algae on the sides of the tank is usually not enough of a problem to really worry too much about.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Putting a lid or cover over a tank but propping it up so it will shade the tank while still allowing good air flow may actually keep things cooler than leaving the covers off completely. Definitely don't seal the lids down to block the air flow.</p> While I was searching for sea…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-09:4778851:Comment:3813812012-08-09T01:33:14.197ZAmanda Plantehttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/AmandaPlante
<p>While I was searching for seashells, I took the opportunity to clean out the gravel, corners of the tanks, channels, pipes, pumps, everything! I typically clean the pumps and filters once a month, but I had no idea how filthy the intake and outtake pipes could get. There wasn't a particularly smelly area that would indicate an anaerobic region, but I'm still picking through the system to find one.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Now that you mention it, the pH does seem to get 0.3-0.5 points higher later…</p>
<p>While I was searching for seashells, I took the opportunity to clean out the gravel, corners of the tanks, channels, pipes, pumps, everything! I typically clean the pumps and filters once a month, but I had no idea how filthy the intake and outtake pipes could get. There wasn't a particularly smelly area that would indicate an anaerobic region, but I'm still picking through the system to find one.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Now that you mention it, the pH does seem to get 0.3-0.5 points higher later in the day. We do have some algae buildup on the sides of our black reservoirs. There are black lids which we have painted white to help keep the water cool while shading out the algae, but I've been hesitant to leave them on. There's not typically a person who would be available to monitor the water temp. etc. in case there were any sort of emergency. The water temp typically rises into the upper 80s in the afternoon. We need to block out a day to monitor the water with the lids on to make sure the temp doesn't spike up too high.</p>
<p></p>
<p>We did have some algae eaters (suckerfish) to clean the sides of the tank, but they died when a heater malfunctioned early this spring. If we could be sure the pH wouldn't rise too far above 7.5, we would get a couple more take care of the algae. I've been looking at some local stores for a good algae treatment, but many have side effects for live plants.</p> It is not uncommon for source…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-08:4778851:Comment:3807972012-08-08T11:43:57.975ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>It is not uncommon for source water pH to vary a bit through the year. I notice a variation from my well depending on if it is the rainy season or dry season and the extent of the drought will also affect it here. Water coming from a municipal supply may not vary quite as much but it is still likely that you could get variations through the year or when there are extreme weather events or even if there is a mess up and the "new guy" accidentally uses more buffer than necessary. (See they…</p>
<p>It is not uncommon for source water pH to vary a bit through the year. I notice a variation from my well depending on if it is the rainy season or dry season and the extent of the drought will also affect it here. Water coming from a municipal supply may not vary quite as much but it is still likely that you could get variations through the year or when there are extreme weather events or even if there is a mess up and the "new guy" accidentally uses more buffer than necessary. (See they usually actually adjust the pH up some for a few reasons including 1, reduce corrosion in metal pipes, 2, chlorine works better in a certain pH range, etc.)</p>
<p></p>
<p>There are a couple other things that can really do a number on pH and you should keep your eye out for them.</p>
<p></p>
<p>1- if the pH is high late in the day but low before dawn, then algae could be causing some extreme diurnal pH swings. I had some water plant beds once that grew a horrible layer of string algae and my pH got way up over 8 but it was lower at dawn, I needed to shade out most of that algae to get the pH to settle back down.</p>
<p></p>
<p>2- if some region of the system goes anaerobic, it can also cause a strangely elevated pH. Find the stinking/smelly spot and clean it out and improve flow, circulation or aeration to/around that area to keep it from going anaerobic again.</p> Thanks. Yeah the pH has been…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-08:4778851:Comment:3805582012-08-08T03:31:00.110ZAmanda Plantehttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/AmandaPlante
<p>Thanks. Yeah the pH has been around 7.5/7.6 the past couple weeks, which is a great deal better than it was. There are still some symptoms of the nutrient deficiency, but the fresh foliage is looking green and plants are starting to flower again. I think what was really irritating me was that I didn't know 100% for sure what the cause was. My mistake with the last few water changes was assuming the fresh water was 7.0 after I did that overnight water test (which I should have given a…</p>
<p>Thanks. Yeah the pH has been around 7.5/7.6 the past couple weeks, which is a great deal better than it was. There are still some symptoms of the nutrient deficiency, but the fresh foliage is looking green and plants are starting to flower again. I think what was really irritating me was that I didn't know 100% for sure what the cause was. My mistake with the last few water changes was assuming the fresh water was 7.0 after I did that overnight water test (which I should have given a full 24 hours). You're right, the system's bio-filter should be able to take care of itself. I'll let nature do it's work and prepare the water to top off according to your specs above. You and Sylvia caught the real issue much earlier in the thread, and I really appreciate your help and patience.</p>
<p></p>
<p>This has been a fun adventure! I'll post again if the pH jumps back up around 8.0. Thanks again to everybody for their assistance!</p> If your tap water pH only ris…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-08:4778851:Comment:3807302012-08-08T03:23:16.316ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>If your tap water pH only rises up to 7.6 then you probably don't have too terrible a problem.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I would recommend that in the separate bin, you might use some muratic acid (hydrochloric acid) and adjust the tap water pH down a bit and leave the bubbler to let it mix and do some regular testing. Keep track of how much acid you use to adjust a particular amount of water. I would say use a little at a time and then let it mix and test and then wait a day and test again and…</p>
<p>If your tap water pH only rises up to 7.6 then you probably don't have too terrible a problem.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I would recommend that in the separate bin, you might use some muratic acid (hydrochloric acid) and adjust the tap water pH down a bit and leave the bubbler to let it mix and do some regular testing. Keep track of how much acid you use to adjust a particular amount of water. I would say use a little at a time and then let it mix and test and then wait a day and test again and possibly repeat until you get the pH down to say 6.5 and get it to stay there. Then you will know about how much acid it takes to adjust a given amount of your tap water down (and have it stay down) to 6.5. </p>
<p></p>
<p>Then you can use the adjusted water to top up your system instead of trying to add acid directly to a system which can be dangerous.</p>
<p></p>
<p>If your tap water pH only rises to 7.6 though, I don't think you will regularly need to deal with acid if the system is stocked enough and not loosing water to leaks, the natural action of the bio-filter will tend to bring pH down naturally so a small amount of buffering from your tap water may not be all bad.</p> Thank you for all your help!…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-08:4778851:Comment:3810032012-08-08T00:20:36.605ZAmanda Plantehttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/AmandaPlante
<p>Thank you for all your help!</p>
<p></p>
<p>The liquid pH test was purchased this spring from Walmart. I'll check the expiration and get back to you with that info. The liquid test does seem to confirm the read out we've been getting from our Hanna meter.</p>
<p></p>
<p>OK so I prepared for a partial water replacement. Last Friday, I filled 3 plastic bins with enough water to replace about 1/3 of the water in the reservoirs. I allowed it to sit over the weekend with bubblers. No…</p>
<p>Thank you for all your help!</p>
<p></p>
<p>The liquid pH test was purchased this spring from Walmart. I'll check the expiration and get back to you with that info. The liquid test does seem to confirm the read out we've been getting from our Hanna meter.</p>
<p></p>
<p>OK so I prepared for a partial water replacement. Last Friday, I filled 3 plastic bins with enough water to replace about 1/3 of the water in the reservoirs. I allowed it to sit over the weekend with bubblers. No products were added to the water. On Monday morning, I tested the water pH of these bins. It was 7.5. I had done a test earlier where I had stored some tap water in a glass and allowed it to sit overnight and the pH was close to neutral, but in retrospect I may not have allowed it to set the full 24 hours. The water fresh from the tap / hose is neutral. I'm in the process of doing another test of the tap water both in a glass and in the plastic bins to verify the pH is rising.</p>
<p></p>
<p>In the meantime, I've contacted our local utilities board to ask if they do the same treatment throughout the year. As I stated earlier, we didn't have a pH issue until this spring. Apparently they do the same treatment throughout the year and the water leaves the facility usually between 7.0 and 7.6.</p>
<p></p>
<p>So in addition to the seashells making the pH increase, it appears our water supply might have something to do with this. The water pH is also resistant to staying down when adding pH Down or a neutralizer. I've read elsewhere on the site (I believe a post by TClynx) that this could be indicative of hard water? If this is the situation, what can we do? The site isn't in a great area to do rainwater collection.</p> APguy01,
First, if the gravel…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-02:4778851:Comment:3785472012-08-02T02:14:09.448ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>APguy01,</p>
<p>First, if the gravel is what caused the pH to rise (if there is limestone or marble in the gravel) then no amount of acid is going to bring the pH down to 6.8 and keep it there until all the calcium carbonate is dissolved from the rocks (as in the rocks are mostly gone.) If your media is a buffer you can't bring your pH down with acid, all you will do is cause your pH to bounce. Do a fiz test.</p>
<p></p>
<p> HOW BIG IS YOUR SYSTEM?!?!?! 40,000 gallons? </p>
<p>Just…</p>
<p>APguy01,</p>
<p>First, if the gravel is what caused the pH to rise (if there is limestone or marble in the gravel) then no amount of acid is going to bring the pH down to 6.8 and keep it there until all the calcium carbonate is dissolved from the rocks (as in the rocks are mostly gone.) If your media is a buffer you can't bring your pH down with acid, all you will do is cause your pH to bounce. Do a fiz test.</p>
<p></p>
<p> HOW BIG IS YOUR SYSTEM?!?!?! 40,000 gallons? </p>
<p>Just because you add the acid into 100-200 gallons of water and bubble it first, doesn't mean that makes it safe to add 1/2 a gallon into your system per day unless your system is between 20,000-40,000 gallons of system water.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Now if you meant to say you were going to add the acid into 100-200 gallons and then add only a gallon of that into your system per day, maybe......... But you wouldn't really be able to measure the actual pH of the top up water so it would be hard to figure out how much to use to adjust your full system water pH down the desired amount and the amount of time it takes for acid to mix through out the system to counteract whatever is elevating your pH is likely to cause frustrations and over compensation.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I think I would start off adding like a cup of acid into the 100 gallons and bubbling it for a day until I got the top up water into a readable, stable pH range between 6.1-6.4. Then use the adjusted top up water as needed without getting too up tight about bringing the system pH down in a short time period.<br/><br/></p>
<p></p> i agree with tc.. the gravel…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-01:4778851:Comment:3783832012-08-01T18:27:28.115ZKeith Rowanhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/KeithRowan
<p>i agree with tc.. the gravel (with shells) didn't raise the ph up that high..</p>
<p>what's the expiration date on your ph test chemical bottle? are you testing at the same time of day? (the ph will swing a bit on it's own in the system between night and day..)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>the only thing i would "add" to the system would be maxicrop with iron - the ph will come down on its own</p>
<p>but i see that folks on this forum lean towards adjusting, and many have experience.. just make sure any…</p>
<p>i agree with tc.. the gravel (with shells) didn't raise the ph up that high..</p>
<p>what's the expiration date on your ph test chemical bottle? are you testing at the same time of day? (the ph will swing a bit on it's own in the system between night and day..)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>the only thing i would "add" to the system would be maxicrop with iron - the ph will come down on its own</p>
<p>but i see that folks on this forum lean towards adjusting, and many have experience.. just make sure any changes are gradual.. i'd stretch the timeline out over a couple weeks (if i tried to adjust the ph)</p>
<p> </p> Hey TClynx,
Thanks for some…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-01:4778851:Comment:3783702012-08-01T16:55:02.985ZKevin Gorhamhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/Kevin
<p>Hey TClynx,</p>
<p></p>
<p>Thanks for some really helpful information. I've read of people having issues with HCl but they were adding it directly to their system, not bubbling it in their top up water first. Would you recommend bubbling it for 24 hours or is a longer period required? From what I've found online (<a href="http://www.ehow.com/how_4892515_lower-ph-swimming-pools.html" target="_blank">Here</a>), it recommends 1/4 gallon to lower a 20,000 gallon system .1 ppm. I'm skeptical of…</p>
<p>Hey TClynx,</p>
<p></p>
<p>Thanks for some really helpful information. I've read of people having issues with HCl but they were adding it directly to their system, not bubbling it in their top up water first. Would you recommend bubbling it for 24 hours or is a longer period required? From what I've found online (<a href="http://www.ehow.com/how_4892515_lower-ph-swimming-pools.html" target="_blank">Here</a>), it recommends 1/4 gallon to lower a 20,000 gallon system .1 ppm. I'm skeptical of any formula because I know it depends on what is in your water and also the temperature of the water, but it seems like a good place to start.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I plan to add 1/2 gallon of HCl to about 100-200 gallons of water and then add that to the system after bubbling it for 24 hours. Then test the ph the next day, rinse, and repeat until I reach 6.8-7. I'm shooting for a .2 pH drop each day, or changing the ph from 8.8 to 6.8 over 10 days. Do you think this is gradual enough?</p>
<p></p>
<p>My pH has reached 8.8 since I added gravel to the system, our tap is 8.1, and I need to do something soon for the safety of our fish and plants. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.</p> You said your gravel is in th…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-01:4778851:Comment:3782622012-08-01T12:08:33.203ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>You said your gravel is in the fish tank?</p>
<p>I generally prefer the gravel be in the grow bed for a media filled grow bed or a separate filter since in the bottom of a fish tank the gravel may collect enough solids to create an anaerobic area that could actually cause an elevated pH and could also offgass some nasty stuff that would be bad for the fish depending on how the system is set up and how often you vaccuume the gravel out.</p>
<p></p>
<p>My personal experience with sea shells...…</p>
<p>You said your gravel is in the fish tank?</p>
<p>I generally prefer the gravel be in the grow bed for a media filled grow bed or a separate filter since in the bottom of a fish tank the gravel may collect enough solids to create an anaerobic area that could actually cause an elevated pH and could also offgass some nasty stuff that would be bad for the fish depending on how the system is set up and how often you vaccuume the gravel out.</p>
<p></p>
<p>My personal experience with sea shells... They generally only buffer to a pH of 7.6 or at least that was the case with the ones I had in my old system (about 40% of my gravel was shells), my pH would go up when topping up with lots of well water but would generally come back down to 7.6 as long as the fish were eating lots and the nitrification was working hard. I had to supplement heavily with chelated iron.</p>
<p></p>
<p>If you need to do large scale water changes and your tap water has just chlorine in it, get a barrel and an extra aquarium bubbler and you fill the barrel with tap water and bubble it for a few days to prepare it for use in your system without needing to get water conditioners. However that won't work for chloramine so you need to know what is used in your water supplies. Beware the pH of your tap water, if you test it right out of the tap, you may get a false low reading but then when you test it after it has bubbled overnight in the barrel you will get a more accurate reading. Bubbling the top up water in a separate barrel is a good place to adjust the pH (before you put it in the system.) I like muratic acid for adjusting the pH before use in the system since bubbling the water will mix it and allow gasses to escape the hydrochloric acid won't cause anything harmful in your system used this way.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I doubt you need to do a complete water change though since if there are shells in there, the pH would just buffer back up even if your tap water is truly low pH. If there is more than just a few bits of shell mixed in, you may not see the pH go much below 7.6 until all the calcium carbonate from those shells has been dissolved.</p>