Oxyge in water - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-29T12:31:59Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/oxyge-in-water?groupUrl=aquaponicsforbeginners&commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A542013&groupId=4778851%3AGroup%3A28135&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI agree with TC. If you have…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2014-01-17:4778851:Comment:5419422014-01-17T18:37:59.189ZJim Fiskhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/JimFisk
<p>I agree with TC. If you have all these separate air pumps and water pumps you have to ck every one every time. If you have one RELIABLE air pump you only need ck one FT to see that all is ok. And that applies to the water pump as well. That is why I have resorted to using the best quality for each. The commercial little air pump I posted as an example, previously, will out last the "consumer" aquarium pumps probably in the order of 50 to 1. My air pumps were OLD when I removed them from the…</p>
<p>I agree with TC. If you have all these separate air pumps and water pumps you have to ck every one every time. If you have one RELIABLE air pump you only need ck one FT to see that all is ok. And that applies to the water pump as well. That is why I have resorted to using the best quality for each. The commercial little air pump I posted as an example, previously, will out last the "consumer" aquarium pumps probably in the order of 50 to 1. My air pumps were OLD when I removed them from the metal pile at the dump on Cape Cod some years ago. I forgot I even had them BUT after dealing with the "vibrator" style consumer air pumps and becoming very disappointed with their poor performance the light went off and I rummaged thru my storage semi and I have not looked back. The consumer pumps are on the shelf for now.<br/>The best BU in terms of failure is to buy the best and then get a BU and have it ready. I am willing to bet that my pumps were in operation for 20 yrs BEFORE I grabbed them (based upon what they came out of) and put one to use in our system and WITHOUT rebuilding them it has been running quietly for nearly 2 yrs now 24/7 aerating 5 full size IBC FTs.<br/>I want to clarify one thing. These pumps are diaphragm style pumps BUT they are built like a tank with way oversize ball bearings, heavy duty diaphragms and robust crankshafts. On top of that they are what's called "positive displacement" like a car engine. That means they do not lose pressure easily and therefore will push air to the bottom of a 4' deep IBC in stride. Vibrator or the "solenoid" types (solenoid style are very loud by all reports) simply start to stall given any back pressure. That is why they don't work well on larger deeper systems. Then there are the turbine types that are very inefficient and expensive and again not good for pressure but produce large volumes of air. Basically a sophisticated form of fan if you will. Car motors have been positive displacement for over 100 years for good reasons. At 50.00 you cannot beat one of these little commercial pumps. New they sell in the 4-500.00 range because they are so well built in such a small package.<br/>As to BU systems keep an eye out for commercial size UPS units on Ebay as well. I pu a 1400 watt ADC unit that will charge 2 large 12v or 4 golf cart bats and take care of everything in a power outage for many hours without a sound or any hands on at all. I spent 85.00 delivered for what had been a 2-3000.00 unit new. I got it originally for my printer that I make up to 16 foot panoramas on and a power outage would be very costly in the middle of one of those prints. Commercial surplus again is the way to get the best at a fraction of the price of the consumer models.</p> Well I think having two separ…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2014-01-17:4778851:Comment:5418662014-01-17T15:19:31.843ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>Well I think having two separate air pumps per system is way overkill.</p>
<p>Remember that you are also getting aeration from your water pumping and circulation system (unless your system is operating on airlift pumping.)</p>
<p>So I figure that one of my pumps for the system is the water pump and that is going to be a separate pump per system and I try to put them on a different circuit from the air pumping.</p>
<p>Then I want some form of separate aeration system. This could be in the…</p>
<p>Well I think having two separate air pumps per system is way overkill.</p>
<p>Remember that you are also getting aeration from your water pumping and circulation system (unless your system is operating on airlift pumping.)</p>
<p>So I figure that one of my pumps for the system is the water pump and that is going to be a separate pump per system and I try to put them on a different circuit from the air pumping.</p>
<p>Then I want some form of separate aeration system. This could be in the form of an air pump for each system or a larger air pump that covers all systems but this one I definitely want on a separate circuit than the water pumping and if at all possible I do like to have a power backup for the air pumping (I did at the old house, I just need to get more batteries and inverters and all that hooked up here.)</p>
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<p>I don't see it as necessary to have two separate air pump systems for the fish tanks, at least in my systems since the air pumping is actually a redundancy in itself. As long as the water pumping is circulating, spraying and splashing the water I'm not likely to kill fish just because the air pump quits. (My fish varieties don't need extreme oxygen levels, if the water pumping alone isn't enough to keep your fish alive, then you might want the extra redundancy.) If the air pump quits or the water pump quits during hot weather the fish still survive but will be off their feed until I get the problem sorted out but I don't expect a fish kill as long as one or the other is working and they are not getting fed while the system is limping along in such a fashion.</p>
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<p>If you do go for the total double redundancy (like two water pumps plus two air pumps) make sure there is some sort of indicator that will let you or other tenders realize that the main is down and you need to fix something since it might not be easily noticed at a quick glance when going out to feed or walking past the tank if you see water flowing and air bubbling. A system where the main has failed and you are only running on the backup without noticing and gets left that way is just as in danger of experiencing failure as a system with NO BACKUP.</p>
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<p>Consider Cosmo's backup indicator system using colored lights, if all the colored lights are not on, then something might be wrong and need to get checked out. Usually this is not for the operator but for the people you leave to tend things when you go away for a holiday.</p> How about 2 large pumps on se…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2014-01-17:4778851:Comment:5419352014-01-17T14:45:19.540ZJeff Shttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/JeffSullivan
<p>How about 2 large pumps on separate circuits allowing 2 air lines to each tank for redundancy with 1 power back up. Just another option for the larger enthusiast. Most of us I feel are 1-4 tanks so elaborate back up systems would be overkill.</p>
<p>How about 2 large pumps on separate circuits allowing 2 air lines to each tank for redundancy with 1 power back up. Just another option for the larger enthusiast. Most of us I feel are 1-4 tanks so elaborate back up systems would be overkill.</p> Yes, I tend to do this by usi…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2014-01-17:4778851:Comment:5420132014-01-17T14:36:33.203ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>Yes, I tend to do this by using an air pump for each tank or system and then the system also has a water pump that provides circulation and aeration. In a perfect world I would have the air pumps on a battery backup fail over switch in case mains power fails.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Jeff Sullivan said:…</cite></p>
<p>Yes, I tend to do this by using an air pump for each tank or system and then the system also has a water pump that provides circulation and aeration. In a perfect world I would have the air pumps on a battery backup fail over switch in case mains power fails.<br/> <br/> <cite>Jeff Sullivan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/oxyge-in-water?groupUrl=aquaponicsforbeginners&commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A541858&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum#4778851Comment541858"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>While the larger pumps will work well is many situations I think I would go with at least one pump for every tank. If something happens to a large pump feeding several tanks then you have issues in several tanks instead of just one. A better option might be 2 smaller pumps per tank as a back up if one fails.</p>
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<p>However, one might need to examine their situation carefully to decide if many separate pumps (and hence power points) is really a viable option. If you do NOT have the means to get backup power wired in for all separate set ups and don't have two separate circuits for EACH tank (since a major common fail point that could affect both pumps, like the breaker or cgfi tripping on the circuit that both are plugged into kinda defeats the safety of having two separate pumps per tank.) Then one might want to look into a larger air pump that could be served by a single backup power source and just the air plumbing needs to be run out to each individual tank rather than having to run double/duplicate wiring out to each tank to have enough circuits.</p>
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<p>I have so far not lost any fish due to a pump failure (well unless you count the time the grate failed and a fish got sucked into the pump) but I have lost an entire tank full of fish when the CGFI tripped on the circuit that both the water pump and air pump were on due to a storm. We didn't realize anything was wrong till it was too late either since it wasn't like the power everywhere went out, only that one circuit.</p>
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<p>Anyway, for many people it is not necessarily safe for them to be running their own power circuits around the place and they would have to hire an electrician to do it so I can understand a situation where one might be willing to use a larger size backup air system common to many tanks since it would likely not require running lots of extra circuits and wiring. Especially since a separate fail over switch, battery, Relay, inverter, and pump for multiple systems could actually become more costly to buy, install and maintain long term than a single larger Backup system.</p>
<p>The choice on this might be tricky since systems often grow over time and you might not know where you need the power points run when you have the electrician on hand doing the work but of course the larger the air system the more power it uses and backup systems for large power consumption tend to get very costly in themselves and it is all balanced by what you have the budget for at the time.</p>
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</div> While the larger pumps will w…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2014-01-17:4778851:Comment:5418582014-01-17T03:13:28.933ZJeff Shttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/JeffSullivan
<p>While the larger pumps will work well is many situations I think I would go with at least one pump for every tank. If something happens to a large pump feeding several tanks then you have issues in several tanks instead of just one. A better option might be 2 smaller pumps per tank as a back up if one fails.</p>
<p>While the larger pumps will work well is many situations I think I would go with at least one pump for every tank. If something happens to a large pump feeding several tanks then you have issues in several tanks instead of just one. A better option might be 2 smaller pumps per tank as a back up if one fails.</p> Leo,
While it is true tha…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2014-01-17:4778851:Comment:5418562014-01-17T01:29:23.587ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>Leo,</p>
<p> While it is true that only a portion of the oxygenation from regular atmospheric bubbling of the water using air pumps and air stones comes from the actual bubble to water contact as the bubbles rise, that doesn't negate the fact that those bubbles rising in the water column is actually pretty effective at mixing the water in the tank to bring bottom water to the surface to get aerated and those bubbles actually disturb the surface of the water (not just by bursting at the…</p>
<p>Leo,</p>
<p> While it is true that only a portion of the oxygenation from regular atmospheric bubbling of the water using air pumps and air stones comes from the actual bubble to water contact as the bubbles rise, that doesn't negate the fact that those bubbles rising in the water column is actually pretty effective at mixing the water in the tank to bring bottom water to the surface to get aerated and those bubbles actually disturb the surface of the water (not just by bursting at the surface) but simply by roiling the surface (causing little waves.)</p>
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<p>Anything that disturbs the surface, mixes the water, splashes or sprays will help with aeration. A water pump that is on a separate circuit that simply moves, sprays or splashes the water can serve as an aeration backup, it doesn't HAVE to be an air pump, that is just often an easy way to do it.</p>
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<p>One benefit with air pumping is you can actually use a single air pump to provide aeration on two separate systems without mixing the water in any way while it would require two separate water pumps to do the job while maintaining system isolation.</p> I need to reply here pertaini…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2014-01-15:4778851:Comment:5415662014-01-15T02:32:29.787ZLeo White Bearhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/LeoWhiteBear
<p>I need to reply here pertaining to water oxygenation from air stones or bubblers. A very small amount of oxygen DOES desolve into the water column from the bubbles but the majority of oxygenation occurs by the surface tension be broken. </p>
<p>Example #1 Rain oxygenates the water just by breaking said tension. Rain does not penatrate the surface of water to much depth, the surface is broken and thus the water is disturbed and oxygenation occurs.</p>
<p>Example #2 Waves actually do not…</p>
<p>I need to reply here pertaining to water oxygenation from air stones or bubblers. A very small amount of oxygen DOES desolve into the water column from the bubbles but the majority of oxygenation occurs by the surface tension be broken. </p>
<p>Example #1 Rain oxygenates the water just by breaking said tension. Rain does not penatrate the surface of water to much depth, the surface is broken and thus the water is disturbed and oxygenation occurs.</p>
<p>Example #2 Waves actually do not penetrate the water column by much depth either (excluding storm action). Common waves (less than 2' caps) break the surface and in turn add oxygen to the water area.</p>
<p> </p> hay Jim, there are Diaphram a…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2014-01-14:4778851:Comment:5415402014-01-14T15:28:46.536ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>hay Jim, there are Diaphram air pumps that can handle pumping plenty of air into an IBC (The pumps I use on my 1000 gallon tanks are able to provide almost 2 cfm at 2 psi for only 50 watts of power use. For a single IBC tank I would use the smaller 35 watt version of the same pump or I expect I could run 2-4 IBCs from a single one of the larger air pumps depending on the depth of water in the tanks.) They have the drawback of needing their diaphrams replaced yearly but that isn't…</p>
<p>hay Jim, there are Diaphram air pumps that can handle pumping plenty of air into an IBC (The pumps I use on my 1000 gallon tanks are able to provide almost 2 cfm at 2 psi for only 50 watts of power use. For a single IBC tank I would use the smaller 35 watt version of the same pump or I expect I could run 2-4 IBCs from a single one of the larger air pumps depending on the depth of water in the tanks.) They have the drawback of needing their diaphrams replaced yearly but that isn't outrageous. </p>
<p>I run simple 50 watt air pumps for each of my 1000 gallon fish tanks. Perhaps if I were running trout I would want more aeration but trout are really not an option here anyway. The size of these air pumps might be a touch small for my tanks (probably more appropriate for an 800 gallon tank at only 46" of water depth but that is only really of concern to me if the main pumps stop for an extended period of time during warm weather, at which point I would probably be plugging the water pumps into the generator for periods of time to circulate the water anyway.)</p>
<p>Now if you have a whole bank of IBC's being fed off a single air pump I could well see running a larger motor (read more electricity) to drive a piston pump but for people who don't know what they are looking at, NOT ALL PISTON AIR PUMPS are created equal. And if you don't know where to get good working ones inexpensively or how to maintain them, it might be cheaper to buy a whole new diaphram air pump yearly. Remember to calculate the ongoing electrical costs in addition to the pump cost and the regular maintenance costs.</p>
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<p>I run a separate blower to provide large volume of air to my shallow (low pressure) raft beds. That blower won't push any air out an air stone in a 46" deep tank and to get a blower that could provide enough air to the deep water at the same time as providing air to the shallow beds would cost me big time in ongoing electrical costs (would run well over a kilowatt all the time) The smaller blower is well under 300 watts and each Large fish tank air pump is only another 50 watts so by using the most appropriate pump for the job I'm saving well over 500 watts all the time. Also, I won't bother trying to run the blower if there is a power outtage since it would require too big an inverter to put on battery backup so I only need to worry about the fish tank air pumps.</p> Depth has to do with the amou…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2014-01-14:4778851:Comment:5413722014-01-14T15:08:04.791ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>Depth has to do with the amount of pressure it takes to push the air down below some depth of water. So if you want your air stones to be on the bottom of your fish tank, you have to make sure your air pump can provide enough pressure to also get enough air down as deep as that. For instance, if you are using a very small aquarium air pump, try putting the air stone down into much deeper water than the 10-12" deep aquarium you usually put it in. What happens to the air flow?</p>
<p>Those…</p>
<p>Depth has to do with the amount of pressure it takes to push the air down below some depth of water. So if you want your air stones to be on the bottom of your fish tank, you have to make sure your air pump can provide enough pressure to also get enough air down as deep as that. For instance, if you are using a very small aquarium air pump, try putting the air stone down into much deeper water than the 10-12" deep aquarium you usually put it in. What happens to the air flow?</p>
<p>Those little aquarium air pumps often can't supply any air once you hit 24" deep and having your air stones floating half way up the side of the fish tank is not necessarily an effective way to provide aeration.</p>
<p>28" of water depth requires 1 psi of pressure and most large medium pore air stones require the equivalent of 10" of water depth to push air through them. So if you had a fish tank with about 46" of water depth you would need an air pump that could provide enough air for your amount of tank or fish at 2 psi (46" + 10" for the air stone =56" which needs 2 pounds per square inch.)</p>
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<p>If you are only dealing with like 10" of water depth like in a little aquarium or a raft bed, you won't need much pressure to push the air down to the bottom of the water.</p>
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<p>Hence why water depth actually has a big impact on aeration if you are planing to use air stones on the bottom of the tank to provide that aeration. Also keep in mind that venturi type aeration methods will restrict the water flow and may still require an air pump if the venturi is placed deep enough that the natural suction can't pull the air down deep enough.</p>
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<p>Surface area of the water is where much aeration happens but if something is on the surface of the water that blocks the surface to air interface (like rafts) you loose that aeration and have to provide it by other means. And simply relying on a pump spray bar for aeration means that you need to keep that spray bar unclogged and if the pump dies or power goes out there isn't any backup. Having a separate pump providing aeration is a means of redundancy and having that separate pump on some form of power backup is further "safety" or redundancy. However, choosing and sizing the equipment appropriately is going to be very important for efficiency, especially if one wants to run it on an inverter and battery backup.</p>
<p>Having a large compressor motor kick on/off all the time is likely to be way too large a load for most reasonably priced inverters.</p> That has been in dispute for…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2014-01-14:4778851:Comment:5415392014-01-14T14:59:31.145ZJim Fiskhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/JimFisk
<p>That has been in dispute for years. If that were true then why put air stones at the bottom at all? Why not just stir the surface? I'll go with "dwell time" meaning the longer the bubbles are in contact with the water (and the smaller the size bubbles) the more O2 is dissolved in said water.</p>
<p>Most aquarium air pumps are not designed for 4 ft. deep IBC FTs. The pump I showed above has no problem pushing the air to 4'. I have used both and I have a very nice large aquarium vibrator type…</p>
<p>That has been in dispute for years. If that were true then why put air stones at the bottom at all? Why not just stir the surface? I'll go with "dwell time" meaning the longer the bubbles are in contact with the water (and the smaller the size bubbles) the more O2 is dissolved in said water.</p>
<p>Most aquarium air pumps are not designed for 4 ft. deep IBC FTs. The pump I showed above has no problem pushing the air to 4'. I have used both and I have a very nice large aquarium vibrator type pump sitting on the shelf because it could barely produce a bubble at 4' depth. It will work fine in a 12" raft bed however. For IBCs you need a motor driven oil-less pump. I raise Trout which need plenty of O2 and they are very happy. Blowers are expensive, noisy and very costly to run in my experience. Nothing pushes air like a simple motor driven piston when it comes to efficiency in a less than commercial system. There are the solenoid types you see everywhere on Ebay but they are reported to be deafening and not nearly as reliable as a commercial duty pump as seen above. We could debate this all day long but I have been aerating everything from fish ponds to sewerless recycling toilets for 30 years and more and this is what I use.</p>
<p>One other pump is the type used on vacuum cleaners and Jecuzzis. They are 1 - 3 stage ventury style pumps and are popular on Jecuzzi tubs for the air function and being a brush motor are variable speed with the use of a standard drill style speed control. They could well be of use and the brushes produce a small amount of ozone that can be very useful to an AP system as well. I have worked on them on many a Jecuzzi over the years. Easy to find in a dump, etc. for free. I will play with them when I have time. Less than 100% duty cycle could be their downfall. Someday<a style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Frown.gif"/></a><br/> <br/> <cite>Jeff Sullivan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/oxyge-in-water?groupUrl=aquaponicsforbeginners&commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A541371&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum#4778851Comment541371"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>What does the depth have to do with aeration? I've read that it's the bubbles breaking the surface that oxygenates the water. So confusing.</p>
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