I applaud Whole Foods willingness to "coexist" in exchange for regulation reform, because GE is an important technology we should embrace for the future. It is a shame that it is being misused and has such a bad rap, because our consumptive nature as humans can't "coexist" with out GMOs.
Actually, the solution I've always had in mind is to start producing our own food. When food sources run out, then we will be eating and the "fat and lazy" people who can't produce their own food will become our slaves :)
Roger Baldwin said:
There are two solutions.either, find a way to streamline our production systems or hope for an apocalyptic event that will reduce the population by %75. Either way the continued use of GE will help us get there.
Okay, I really want to be clear here: I VERY do NOT condone suicide. I think that is a disgusting alternative. I merely was pointing out that yeah, if you are going to believe in reducing the population, then you should realize that the only person you can make that decision for is yourself. It's easy to say you believe something and not understand how the whole idea fleshes out when allowed to sprout and grow mature. That's why any worldview position needs to be taken along the path it creates for itself till the end. When the end result shows it head, that is what makes the deciding factor for whether you will align yourself with that belief system. (Vlad, I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or not. If you were serious, well, just take me off of your support list. If you were jesting, then I apologize for over reacting :) I just REALLY do not want to be associated with promoting suicide)
Vlad Jovanovic said:
I agree with Alex...we should "start at home" so to say...the Church of Euthanasia links, provide some wonderful reading material to help fortify ones decision, should they decide to actually do something about these problems we have on the planet.
You know, to be honest, I don't really know enough about birth control to be able give a valid opinion. I'm unmarried, have never been in a romantic or sexual relationship, and have always enjoyed the notion of having children. So, just haven't thought too much about it until now. I've been thinking about your question/statement all day at work trying to flesh out what my thoughts are. As of right now, I think birth control might be a valid option (although, personally, I am not really concerned for lack of food due to a growing population. Like Vlad said earlier, I think a lot of it boils down to distribution), but I do have some concerns.
Is birth control effective? My limited understanding of condoms, control pills, and the like is that they are not completely effective in preventing pregnancies.
Is it safe? (I'm thinking about birth control pills on this one) Yes, they call it "safe sex", but my concern is a pattern I've seen in life: whenever man tries to contradict the way nature was designed to operate for his own personal gain, things don't go so well (example would be genetically modified foods). Organic is safer, more productive, and less work. So, that said, rules of nature state that sex and children go hand in hand. My concern with fighting against that with "better living through chemicals" is that it has got to have some negative repercussions somewhere. I have yet to find a place where we are allowed to cut corners with chemicals without negative side effects.
Most everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. Some want to have sex and not have children. But it seems to me that nature just about calls the two synonymous. Is it possible to have one without the other?
Anyway, those were just some thoughts that ran across my mind this morning. Nothing concrete, and nothing I'm not flexible to talk about. Haven't found a good place to push my tent stakes into yet. Just something to be considered for ponder-ation. I would love to hear what other people have to say. My ideas on this subject are still full of holes, so nothing is consistent yet.
Bob Terrell said:
Would not birth control be a much better way?
By the way, I'm having a blast talking about this stuff. If you look at my profile, discussing worldview is on my list of favorite hobbies :) Thanks for being willing to talk about it. Let's keep it all good and clean so we can keep having fun! Oh, and Roger Baldwin? I don't know if you knew you what you were getting into when you started this discussion, but I just wanted to let you know that I don't think anyone is mad at you or anything, so don't take our comments as an attack on you! GM foods is a subject that a lot of people feel very passionate about on this site, and I know that, at least for me, it would be discouraging to post a discussion and get so much negative feedback on what you said. So don't take it personal and keep posting!
Yes, it is a subject that many people are very passionate about, BUT the bottom line no matter what side you are on and no matter what position you take is that the EARTH cannot support the amount of people that will be here by the year 2050 at the current rate of expansion. We have a really BIG problem and it will just keep getting worse untill
3. Bruce Willis fails to stop the astroid.
4. Sun Explodes
you take youir pick.
Bottom line is our children are in a heap of trouble, and most don't even have a clue.
Yes this is fun and Yes NOONE needs to get excited or upset over anything said here.
Aquaponice is fun!
Terms --GE =Genetically Engineered GMO genetically modified organism
What brought me to aquaponics was the hope to grow food which is healthy and Organic. Food made by God as it was intended. I am 47 years old now and I can remember a time when my mother took me to the grocery store and she bought a chicken it was just a chicken it wasn't marked organic. Frankenstein chickens didn't exist at that time. NOW We worry about all the food that we shop for is it genetically modified? What’s in it? How will it affect our children?
I am new to aquaponics and these issues are what brought me here. I believe the two biggest crimes against humanity are one genetically modified foods and the second being geoengineering. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoengineering)
The article you have reference clearly indicates that genetically modified foods have a harmful effects to our soil, people etc. I like so many other folks today our little skeptical about what's happening.
I see Whole Foods willingness to "coexist" in exchange for regulation reform as a complete surrender. I like so many other folks today our little skeptical about what's happening In our country. Take for instance the Monsanto Protection Act to just passed.
I see aquaponics as a possible solution to the insane decisions that are being made today that will affect our earth our planet in our food supply for generations.
Monsanto Protection Act:
The only thing that I am worked up about is that I misused "except" in the tittle. I enjoy difficult conversations, because it helps me to better define my opinion.
Roger, I hope you didn't take that as any sort of personal jibe or anything...I was really quite worked up myself (in a positive way) when I initially read the title the way you had written it. I took it to mean that there was some "trailblazing" going in in the world of (big "O") Organics...possibly meaning AP, bio-ponics, organic hydro and/or other "new" methods (EXCEPT ones that involve GE foods) were to be able to now carry the Organic moniker even though those methods do not use soil...The title really made me quite happy, until of course I clicked on the link you posted. That is the only reason I suggested you change it. I apologize if it was taken negatively, it wasn't meant to be.
It's beyond me how any sane person could think that modifying and/or engineering a plant so that it can be sprayed with a herbicide, known to cause cancer, and then be consumed could be a good idea. It's purely and simply about large corporations making money, nothing more virtuous than that. Screw your ideals - they do not apply here. Why is the Monsanto protection act necessary? Obviously not to protect you.
It's been about eliminating competition, corporate goon lawyers going after farmers, literally forcing them to use GM seeds. Can any person with a traditional sense of justice, fairness or morality approve of those tactics? You think I'm making this up? Research it.
Our courts are too crooked to side with the farmers who have developed their own seeds over several generations but perhaps farmers in other countries will prevail. In the U.S., when a farmer's seeds are contaminated by wind-blown GMO, he is is then sued for patent infringement.
No, you are not entitled to know when you are buying GM foods, not in the U.S. If you knew, you might not buy it and you don't know enough to make that decision for yourself (or maybe you're too stupid) . It's just that simple.
Have you thought about the gigantic dead zone in the gulf of mexico? Think about what causes that and what the alternatives might be.
Haha I didn't realize I could change the title so easily, now it is all fun! Vlad I take no offense to your blunt manner and I am sorry for the misleading title.
It seems to me that every year there is a different atrocity that is going to change the World so that it will never be the same and we NEED to do something to stop it. But, then a year goes by, the underground media bring some new atrocity to light and the old "we need to do something" fad fade away. There is a small percentage of people that attempt to change the way they live for the good of the World, and if they don't pay attention they miss the new fad and all hell will break loose. it is almost like a marketing ploy. I own and operate a retail nursery, where I attempt to cater to "organic" gardeners. It is difficult, because every year I have to make sure that my product is inline with the latest fad. Two years ago everyone was into certified organic, god forbid you add a little super phosphate to tomatoes to make them bigger and tastier. Last year it was prion avoidance. Not only does it have to be organic, but it can't have an animal byproducts or manure, I'd like to see you grow tomatoes with cottonseed meal and alfalfa meal alone. This year is the year of the big bad GMO! I have had dozens of people asking if my veggy starts are GMO or not, even though they are the same varieties they have bought for years. My annual vendor even has a selection of heirloom varieties that people are scoffing at because he also grows hybrid varieties. I sensed this coming so I started several heirloom varieties from a reputable seed company and those plants, I could charge triple for. Marketing ploy?
Then there is the rest of the people in this world, who have been taught to seek the cheapest, easiest and most popular ways to live. Most people in this World will continue to eat lunch off the dollar menu, regardless of the quality, ethics, and environmental impact, because it is cheap. Most people will continue to buy the cheapest wheelbarrow, regardless of where it was made, how far it was shipped, or the fact that it will go to the landfill, broken in a year. They will continue to shop at the store that undercuts all other competitors, by ANY means necessary, employee mistreatment, vendor coercion, and sending jobs oversees, because they can pay $1.00 less for some Chinese POS. Everything you buy nowadays is CRAP, but no one cares because it was so cheap they can just get another one and throw the old one in the dump. Grow your own produce? buy local produced goods? Grow tilapia aquaponically? Why do that when it is cheaper and easier to go to Walmart? All of the solutions that everyone here is proposing, won't work for saving the World because people are too cheap and won't expend the effort.
I have a 1 acre vegetable garden, several fruit trees and bushes, a flock of 25 chickens which I cull regularly for dinner, a fish tank with 40 tilapia, that will soon be fish tacos, and a greenhouse that I raise veggies in year round. I am fortunate that I have the space and opportunity to do all this, and wish everyone could. I do all this because I enjoy providing for my family and seeing what goes into my food, however the amount of time and effort that goes into my endeavors are prohibitive to the majority of people. They have no choice but to buy everything and somehow we have to keep that choice available or else people will "come and try to snatch my crop."
My argument is not trying to defend Monsanto, government policy, or current practices with GMO. I agree that there have been some serious issues with the way our government has fast tracked GE technology, throwing caution to the wind so they can put some of Monsanto's money in their pocket. Also, there have been some poor decisions in which direction GE tech should pursue. Capitalism often skews the best of intentions. But, I also think that for every piece of Monsanto corrupted media, there is 10 pieces of anti-monsanto corrupted media, so good luck to all you truth seekers staying up late at night reading a bunch of bullshit on the internet. Its all a marketing ploy in every direction.
Genetic Engineering is a new technology, but it has monumental potential to do both harm and good. When the first computer came out it took up a whole warehouse and couldn't do 1/10th of the computing as the average persons cellphone. At the time computers looked like a huge waste of time money and space, because it was a new misunderstood technology. Think of where we would be without computer technology today. We don't know where this new GE tech will take us, so, why should we waste all this effort with denouncing this young misunderstood technology? Why not use the effort to try to make it a beneficial tool in sustainability?
As far as euthanasia, I am not a proponent, but it sure would be nice if there weren't so damn many helpless people that we all have to take care of.
young misunderstood technology - sustainability
Speaking of internet bullshit. . .
The question is, what did us take so far to use technologies like GE or GMO? Is it really necessary to use this technology? To understand why we "have" to use it, we must know that our soils are DEAD! Monoculturing, chemical fertilizers, deep soil plowing and pesticides killed all microorganisms in our soil.
Yes, GE and GMO plants were initially planned to be used for drought or saline soils as well as being resistant to pests....not a bad idea...BUT they are misused now for monoculture and mass production. Something which was planned to be used in areas where people would really need it, due to soil problems, took over to be a common practice in areas which usually had good soils. The excessive monoculturing and chemical pesticides degraded good soil into dead soil and created a new situation. Now we depend on GE, GMO crops because (remember they were planned to use in problem soils) nothing would grow on dead soil.
Yes, we could build up soil again, getting back all the organic matter and microorganisms...and im sure many farmers would do it if they could.....why cant we do it? because time is money, and no farmer can afford it to interrupt his production cycle. Thats why farmers will still continue to use GMO GE crops, because they have no other choice, you cant grow crops on dead soil - except with GE GMO :(