Measuring stuff. - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-19T05:18:53Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/measuring-stuff?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A432720&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHey gent's just wanted to che…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-24:4778851:Comment:4327202013-01-24T18:33:20.630ZBarthttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/bartman
<p>Hey gent's just wanted to check in with a short update - I've been able to add the Fe and KCL so far, still working on the Mg slowly via epsom salts and there has been a significant up-tick how the plants look and are definitely starting to takeoff.</p>
<p>So thanks for all the help on this most appreciated as always. Also, thanks for the great link for the hydro book - I don't know if it was meant to be read cover to cover but seems that what I'm doing with it. I'll have to get a hard copy…</p>
<p>Hey gent's just wanted to check in with a short update - I've been able to add the Fe and KCL so far, still working on the Mg slowly via epsom salts and there has been a significant up-tick how the plants look and are definitely starting to takeoff.</p>
<p>So thanks for all the help on this most appreciated as always. Also, thanks for the great link for the hydro book - I don't know if it was meant to be read cover to cover but seems that what I'm doing with it. I'll have to get a hard copy it'll be a great reference.</p>
<p>Sorry about the delayed response, this working for a living thing is getting in the way of my aquaponics habit!</p> No sweat Matthew. We're all g…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-20:4778851:Comment:4306692013-01-20T15:49:09.338ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>No sweat Matthew. We're all guilty of skimming sometimes<img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Smile.gif"></img> . Yes, J. Benton Jones Junior is one of my favorite "tomato" guys. I own a copy of that book and cite it incessantly at times. Many of the papers and people cited therein are real good too. Check out A.P Popadopoulos work on cucumbers he did while at the Harrow Research Station in Canada...Good stuff. I've posted links to his work here before...But since you brought up the moral/legality issues of doing that type of stuff,…</p>
<p>No sweat Matthew. We're all guilty of skimming sometimes<img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Smile.gif"/>. Yes, J. Benton Jones Junior is one of my favorite "tomato" guys. I own a copy of that book and cite it incessantly at times. Many of the papers and people cited therein are real good too. Check out A.P Popadopoulos work on cucumbers he did while at the Harrow Research Station in Canada...Good stuff. I've posted links to his work here before...But since you brought up the moral/legality issues of doing that type of stuff, I've generally quit linking resources here and just drop names...if people actually care, they can then dig up the research/books themselves without the possible headaches for Sylvia...</p>
<p>As to non-chelated iron sources...Sure they exist. Hydroponic folks had to have used something for iron before chelates existed, right? MaxiCrop + Iron still uses one such substance...Iron sulfate, Iron citrate, Iron Chloride and others were used before (and sometimes still are) instead of Fe-chelates. It just takes a lot more of this 'type' of iron in solution to be useful than with Fe's chelated counterpart.</p>
<p>As far as Zn, I think you may have gotten that a bit backwards Matthew...Excessive levels of Zn are known to somewhat interfere with Fe uptake, while the reverse has not been proven yet, and is still a matter of dispute in the scientific community.... Many things surrounding some of Fe's different functions in plant biology are still not understood <em>fully</em> or real well by humans yet. Some of the chelating agents used just complicate issues even further...But, yeah you can use other sources of Iron, but then things like pH and things like phosphate levels really need to be kept even more controlled. In an AP system the pH needs of the bacteria interfere with this, while the fish, and the 'high' level of phosphates that their fish poop contains, interfere on that side of things...I still think an RSG filter and an organic chelating agent (like Oak tannins) would work in an AP/bioponics (particularly if you have a handle on your pH), but honestly, I've not had the time for that little project. I've laid out the theoretical blueprints elsewhere here on the forum, and was hoping that someone else would run with it. (Eric Warwick perhaps...I think it would make a <em>great</em> science project for school, while at the same time being something 'new' and potentially useful to other aquapons who wish to avoid industrial Fe-chelates for whatever reasons (sustainability, self reliance, health fears surrounding chelates...whatever).</p>
<p>Yes, many things are absurd here. Most of that has to do with the business arrangements between with your "managers" and mine...Meaning our governments and the tycoons who run them. Things are different though, if we were to interact more personably, as private individuals and circumvent business arrangements between governments. i.e...if you were to send me that book as a friend, from your own hand, and from your own address, shipping would be 10 to 15 times cheaper...and if you stated the value of said book on the little form from you fill out at your local post office as being $5 to $10, that would go a looong way in lessening the customs duties, taxes etc... that I would need to pay on my end. To quote Monty Python ..."wink wink, nudge nudge...".</p>
<p>Since you are obviously <em>very</em> knowledgeable about fish, and had recommended Nogas book, my wily self went about securing a PDF copy...But to put it bluntly, my PDF copy sucks ass. Not because of Noga or the content, but the person who scanned the PDF did so in a manner where all the text is fuzzy and 'blocky'...Which makes it very difficult to read (actually it gives me a headache when I try...and the color photographs which I consider an invaluable supplement to the text, are unfortunately totally useless in such a crappily scanned PDF copy such as the one I posses<img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Frown.gif"/> </p>
<p></p> http://www.scribd.com/doc/116…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-20:4778851:Comment:4308312013-01-20T14:38:25.383Zmatthew ferrellhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/matthewferrell
<p><a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/116298550/Hydroponics-A-Practical-Guide" target="_blank">http://www.scribd.com/doc/116298550/Hydroponics-A-Practical-Guide</a> </p>
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<p>Vlad, this is fascinating. I always like find a good reference just skimmming through this I found some contradictions to some of the stuff I have learned by listening. It will be interesting to go find the papers they site in this book.<br></br><br></br>Since chemistry is not my strongest suit, it mentions chelate iron…</p>
<p><a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/116298550/Hydroponics-A-Practical-Guide" target="_blank">http://www.scribd.com/doc/116298550/Hydroponics-A-Practical-Guide</a> </p>
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<p>Vlad, this is fascinating. I always like find a good reference just skimmming through this I found some contradictions to some of the stuff I have learned by listening. It will be interesting to go find the papers they site in this book.<br/><br/>Since chemistry is not my strongest suit, it mentions chelate iron inhibits Zn uptake(pg 60). While the solution for this inhibition is to simply increase the zinc concentration it seems as if that is the easest fix, he does mention non chleated iron does not have this effect. I am unaware of a non chleated product that is available in solution without an anaerobic "digester".</p> Darn Vlad, you caught me skim…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-20:4778851:Comment:4308302013-01-20T14:23:36.456Zmatthew ferrellhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/matthewferrell
<p>Darn Vlad, you caught me skimming and not reading. Granted I was multitasking albeit not well. Found the pdf, thanks. Still trying to get you that book btw. I was just talking about the absurdity of the cost of postage to your house the other day.</p>
<p>Darn Vlad, you caught me skimming and not reading. Granted I was multitasking albeit not well. Found the pdf, thanks. Still trying to get you that book btw. I was just talking about the absurdity of the cost of postage to your house the other day.</p> Yeah, it looks like you misse…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-20:4778851:Comment:4306642013-01-20T12:52:45.099ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Yeah, it looks like you missed it Matthew<img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Smile.gif"></img> ... Bart, by expending a few calories of mental energy now know the ppm value in solution vs. the weight of the compounds he is adding...the plants tell you the rest of the story...</p>
<p>I do agree that 'figuring out/identifying' all of the deficiencies look like is important. In the last almost 20 years now, that I've been tinkering with soil-less culture systems I've spent a good deal of time creating certain deficient conditions for…</p>
<p>Yeah, it looks like you missed it Matthew<img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Smile.gif"/>... Bart, by expending a few calories of mental energy now know the ppm value in solution vs. the weight of the compounds he is adding...the plants tell you the rest of the story...</p>
<p>I do agree that 'figuring out/identifying' all of the deficiencies look like is important. In the last almost 20 years now, that I've been tinkering with soil-less culture systems I've spent a good deal of time creating certain deficient conditions for particular cultivars so that I can witness firsthand what those look like. This has helped me immensely...Just as much as the "reading" has. By reading up on threshold amounts of plant essential element 'X' below which visual signs of deficiency begin to manifest for a particular thing you are growing, (assuming all else is in order) you can easily gauge where your system is at.</p>
<p>And this is OK...but really, by the time a deficiency makes itself manifest and you go about correcting it (some are not even correctable, causing 'permanent' damage to plants) you have already lost weeks and weeks of productivity. This is a really weak strategy for dealing with things. Knowing ahead of time, the nutrient strengths and weaknesses of your growing system (whether, aquaponics, pee-ponics, vermiponics, some other form of bio-ponics etc...) As well as the needs of the cultivar you are growing allows to to pre-emptively stay above minimum threshold levels. Without spending hundreds, or even thousands of dollars on sensors and equipment.</p>
<p>I've seen dozens and dozens of photos and posts here where people are having troubles with say cucumbers. "Gee, I have enough nitrates, and I'm adding Iron...but my leaves are still turning yellow between the veins"...and such. This is because cucurbits are total Mg hogs (they actually need more Mg than they do K! ...Which is quite rare for most common food crops. Intervenal chlorosis of OLDER leaves is always indicative to Mg def, intervenal chlorosis of NEW leaves is always Iron def...and so on...so yes it is important to know what these defs look like as well as how they make themselves manifest. As well as knowing what to expect ahead of time. Or, "My toms are HUGE but wont fruit...or the fruit wont ripen (indicative of not enough K)...</p>
<p>We can take advantage of some of these cultivars and their specific needs like the "canary in the mine". For instance, I like to keep an oregano plant handy in a system because it will show signs of Fe deficiency much earlier than many other things I grow in that same system. So when I see a deficiency of Fe beginning to show in the oregano, I know damn well that I am approaching that systems minimum threshold target amount for Fe in solution and that it's time to add Fe. This is both <em>very</em> cheap and <em>very</em> easy. Saves me on wasting expensive Fe-chelates as well as spending money on iron titration tests or god forbid, in-line Fe sensors...etc...etc...etc...The same can be done (canaries in the mine) with some other plant essential elements...by anyone...for next to free. <img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Grin.gif"/></p>
<p>"Getting to these levels" of plant essential elements with salt compounds is still way cheaper than as opposed to through fish and fish food (and all the other things that fish would entail...oxygen, electricity time etc)...</p>
<p>This year I am finding that extracting/reclaiming some of plant essential elements from my own urine is proving to be cheapest of all...Reclaiming biological phosphates, calcium, potassium etc...through very simple and safe process'. It's very cheap, very sustainable, and quite a fun actually. Though I admit it might not be qualified as "easy" for someone without at least a <em>basic</em> understanding of simple organic chemistry pH, acid/base reactions blablabla...Not 'rocket science' difficult or anything mind you. Very low-tech/DIY stuff...it is in only the head where you need to have the most "resources" to fall back on.</p>
<p>I'm trying to keep things, free and cheap and sustainable, but it will take a considerable amount of learning on the part of the operator to keeps things that way. Sorry for rambling off topic sorta...</p>
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<p></p> Vlad maybe I am missing somet…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-20:4778851:Comment:4305902013-01-20T00:09:06.261Zmatthew ferrellhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/matthewferrell
<p>Vlad maybe I am missing something but you mentioned a cheap and easy way to measure these things and I don't see that part. I would love to know some cheap was of getting at these levels.</p>
<p>But the fact is Bart most people really don't need these levels once you figure out what how to identify all of the deficiencies. I do a little more the science route, and minus a spec I have no good way of looking at the cation concentrations.</p>
<p>And listen Vlad, he reads. :P</p>
<p>Vlad maybe I am missing something but you mentioned a cheap and easy way to measure these things and I don't see that part. I would love to know some cheap was of getting at these levels.</p>
<p>But the fact is Bart most people really don't need these levels once you figure out what how to identify all of the deficiencies. I do a little more the science route, and minus a spec I have no good way of looking at the cation concentrations.</p>
<p>And listen Vlad, he reads. :P</p>
Makes perfect sense, I'm go…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-19:4778851:Comment:4307252013-01-19T23:42:06.445ZBarthttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/bartman
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<p>Makes perfect sense, I'm going to add the suggested amounts as per your calculations and will monitor from there.</p>
<p>How much higher should the levels be to support cucs & toms?</p>
<p>Thanks again for the detailed explanation. <a style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad93/ucsycybersmiley/113.gif"/></a></p>
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<p>Makes perfect sense, I'm going to add the suggested amounts as per your calculations and will monitor from there.</p>
<p>How much higher should the levels be to support cucs & toms?</p>
<p>Thanks again for the detailed explanation. <a style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad93/ucsycybersmiley/113.gif"/></a></p> Firstly, let’s start by sayin…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-19:4778851:Comment:4307072013-01-19T18:26:43.829ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p><span>Firstly, let’s start by saying that milligrams per litre (mg/ L) is exactly the same thing as parts per million (ppm) since there are 1000 mg’s in a gram. So it is much, much easier to start by converting your system water volume from US Gallons to litres. (Since we all have 10 fingers and toes this makes things simpler than “teaspoons, ounces, quarts blablabla)…Just multiply your gallons by 3.785 (or round to 3.8)</span></p>
<p><span>I’m going to due this first part the very looong…</span></p>
<p><span>Firstly, let’s start by saying that milligrams per litre (mg/ L) is exactly the same thing as parts per million (ppm) since there are 1000 mg’s in a gram. So it is much, much easier to start by converting your system water volume from US Gallons to litres. (Since we all have 10 fingers and toes this makes things simpler than “teaspoons, ounces, quarts blablabla)…Just multiply your gallons by 3.785 (or round to 3.8)</span></p>
<p><span>I’m going to due this first part the very looong way so that people who are’nt mathematically minded can easily follow along (those that are will get it anyways and can cut out the extra steps)…</span></p>
<p><span>Ok, so in liters that’s 1324.89, but we’ll just call it 1300. So 1.3 kg is 1ppt</span></p>
<p><span>0.65kg is 500ppm ...</span></p>
<p><span>so 0.325kg is 250ppm.</span></p>
<p><span>For KCl 52.45% of that is K (we’ll just call it half, the other half are fish benificial chloride ions). So, if you added 325 grams of KCl that’s 250ppm of KCl which is 125ppm (half) of potassium.</span></p>
<p><span>I don’t know what you are growing exactly what all you are growing (other than bok choy) but you could halve that 325 of KCl grams if you want (since I assume you aren’t growing toms, cukes, squash etc…this time of year). So around 165 grams of KCl total (125ppm KCl, is say 65ppm K) would be fine. Since you've already added 90 grams you can add say 75 grams more if you want. That should be plenty for now.</span></p>
<p><span>If your intent was to use a 2:1 ratio of K to Mg then just redo this next part, but I’d suggest something more along the line of 3:1 K:Mg. So we'll divide by 3</span></p>
<p><span>If 165 grams divided by 3 (to get our 3:1 ratio) is 55 grams (or 41.6ppm of epsom salt) and since only 10% of that is actually Mg we’d multiply that 55 grams by 10. And round to 500 grams. That would give us our desired 40ppm of Mg in solution. Your water may already contain 'significant' amounts of Mg...So again you can use less if you want.</span></p>
<p><span>Now for our 2-3ppm of Iron…Since we already know that 55 grams of whatever in 1300 litres of water gives us 41.6ppm of that ‘whatever’…and we are shooting for 2-3ppm…Just divide 41.6 by a number that gives us about 2.5. In this case 17. So 41.6 divided by 17 is 2.447ppm. Close enough for handgrenades to call it 2.5ppm. So we take our 55 grams and divide that by 17 and get 3.23 grams of Fe. If we had 100% iron that would be it, but since our Fe-chelate is only 7%. For the lazy like me, we’ll call that 10% and say that 30grams of that Fe product will give us close to 3ppm of iron.</span></p>
<p><span>Honestly though, I’d cut that recommendation in half. My bok choy, lettuces, Chinese cabbage, chard, cilantro have been, and are doing fine with no signs of Fe deficiencies with far less. </span></p>
<p><span>For K and Mg I used pretty standard and very common on the mid-lowish end of the scale from well respected folks like: (</span>Asher, C.J. and Edwards, D.G., l978,pp. 13–28 in A.R. Ferguson, B.L. Bialaski, and J.B.Ferguson (Eds.), Proceedings 8th International Colloquium, Plant Analysis and Fertilizer Problems. Information Series No. 134. New Zealand Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, Wellington, New Zealand ; Larsen, J.E., 1979, in Proceedings of the First Annual Conference on Hydroponics:The Soilless Alternative, Hydroponic Society of America, Brentwood, CA). blablabla...</p>
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<p><span>I would add these things as a "one time shot in the arm" for a new system just while it builds up a store of some of these plant essential elements (with the possible exception of Fe...that you might continue to add once a month or so for a while...and see how things go now that your pH is under control (and I'm assuming your using a quality fish feed). If you notice you need to add K once or twice a year, then do so. Try to make the timing additions coincide with your cultivars (say when your toms start flowering would be a good time to add K if you were already going to etc...</span></p>
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<p><span>Hope this stuff made sense.</span></p>
<p><span>Hope some of this helps</span></p> Thanks for the feedback Vlad,…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-19:4778851:Comment:4304812013-01-19T16:19:45.637ZBarthttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/bartman
<p>Thanks for the feedback Vlad, and yeah the price of Iron rubs me the wrong way but if I understand correctly the need to add it to the system should reduce over time as the system matures but for now I'll suck it up <a style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Tongue.gif"></img></a></p>
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<p>Ok so here are the stats we're working with.</p>
<p>350 gallons of water in the system</p>
<p>I've added about 90g of KCI, 50g Epsom Salt, and i'm going to call it 15g of iron so far and the iron i'm using is 7% as per…</p>
<p>Thanks for the feedback Vlad, and yeah the price of Iron rubs me the wrong way but if I understand correctly the need to add it to the system should reduce over time as the system matures but for now I'll suck it up <a style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Tongue.gif"/></a></p>
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<p>Ok so here are the stats we're working with.</p>
<p>350 gallons of water in the system</p>
<p>I've added about 90g of KCI, 50g Epsom Salt, and i'm going to call it 15g of iron so far and the iron i'm using is 7% as per the package. </p>
<p>The PH has been south of 7 for about 4 to 5 weeks now, prior to that it had been running high, around 8 - I used muritatic acid in my topup water to pull it down but have let it be since getting it south of 7 - thank you to both yourself and Jon for your help understanding how to manage the PH issue. <a style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad93/ucsycybersmiley/77.gif"/></a></p>
<p>I'm adding about six litres of water per day, half is evaporation, half is the wife steeling for her potted plants - it's city water which comes from both Lake Erie and Huron, London has a pipline to each so I have no way of knowing which I'm getting not that it would matter but I'm thinking the toxicity levels would be less in Huron.</p>
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<p>Any direction you can provide me would be much appreciated. <a style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Grin.gif"/></a></p>
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<p> </p> tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-19:4778851:Comment:4303972013-01-19T16:02:42.057ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
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