Large systems on Timed Flow - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-29T11:30:33Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/large-systems-on-times-flow?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A171271&feed=yes&xn_auth=noFrank I have to agree with yo…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-08-13:4778851:Comment:1797862011-08-13T18:59:41.226Zthe mad germanhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/themadgerman
<p>Frank I have to agree with you on the electronics application on a large scale or even semi large scale system.</p>
<p>PLCs can save 1 alot a lot of time and money if setup right and completely automate your system.</p>
<p>A PLC allows the controls to make the corrections for you.</p>
<p>If I had a large scale operation I would definately convert to it. I recently tore out a chemical feed application to some cooling towers that'll work great if I ever go big or bigger.</p>
<p>It controlled…</p>
<p>Frank I have to agree with you on the electronics application on a large scale or even semi large scale system.</p>
<p>PLCs can save 1 alot a lot of time and money if setup right and completely automate your system.</p>
<p>A PLC allows the controls to make the corrections for you.</p>
<p>If I had a large scale operation I would definately convert to it. I recently tore out a chemical feed application to some cooling towers that'll work great if I ever go big or bigger.</p>
<p>It controlled the ORP, measured temperature, and controlled the PH with pumps that automatically fed the acid and alkaline solutions to balance the PH, Plus the pump is a120v VFD that coverts a 5hp motor/pump to DC so efficiency is through the roof (max amps is only 7). Cooling tower controls and controllers I think fit well into the AP systems if 1 has the experience or the background to utlize them properly they could make life sweet for those constantly struggling or fighting the system with ups and downs of cycling or PH</p>
<p><br/>I love being a pack rat, some people just don't see the value of what they throw out</p>
<p>the mad german</p>
<p>.<br/><cite>Frank De Block-Burij (hygicell) said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><p>I would not exclude electronics from my system, quite the contrary:</p>
<p>to control manifolds, pumps and valves</p>
<p>and of course to monitor PH, temperature, DO, flow, alarms (even to your mobile phone) etc...</p>
<p>sooner or later we will come to it all to avoid sleepless nights of worrying</p>
<p>programmable logic controllers (PLC's) or their smaller equivalents (programmable relays) are extremely reliable</p>
<p>I have very good experience with Siemens Logo! (available in 12V version)</p>
<p>back to pumps:</p>
<p>a piston pump is very energy efficient in that is is a positive displacement pump</p>
<p>which means that every movement of the pump positively displaces a certain amount of the medium you wish to pump</p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote> Kobus if your serious about a…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-08-13:4778851:Comment:1799332011-08-13T18:45:50.168Zthe mad germanhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/themadgerman
<p>Kobus if your serious about a windmill pump I would stick to the piston pump and just cut out the middle man of using air, if you use air then you'll have to design an application when the basic design and principal is already in place by the piston design itself to start the work immediately. Granted it would only be a supplement when the wind blows</p>
<p>Unless your looking at storing huge amounts of compressed air for later work, either way you still have the issue of no-wind days. I'm…</p>
<p>Kobus if your serious about a windmill pump I would stick to the piston pump and just cut out the middle man of using air, if you use air then you'll have to design an application when the basic design and principal is already in place by the piston design itself to start the work immediately. Granted it would only be a supplement when the wind blows</p>
<p>Unless your looking at storing huge amounts of compressed air for later work, either way you still have the issue of no-wind days. I'm not sure about the climatic dynamics of your geographic region, But I'm assuming you have lots of sun when I mentioned a solar feed into a storage tank.</p> I would not exclude electroni…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-08-13:4778851:Comment:1791502011-08-13T07:32:37.628ZFrank De Block-Burij (hygicell)https://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/FrankDeBlockBurij
<p>I would not exclude electronics from my system, quite the contrary:</p>
<p>to control manifolds, pumps and valves</p>
<p>and of course to monitor PH, temperature, DO, flow, alarms (even to your mobile phone) etc...</p>
<p>sooner or later we will come to it all to avoid sleepless nights of worrying</p>
<p>programmable logic controllers (PLC's) or their smaller equivalents (programmable relays) are extremely reliable</p>
<p>I have very good experience with Siemens Logo! (available in 12V…</p>
<p>I would not exclude electronics from my system, quite the contrary:</p>
<p>to control manifolds, pumps and valves</p>
<p>and of course to monitor PH, temperature, DO, flow, alarms (even to your mobile phone) etc...</p>
<p>sooner or later we will come to it all to avoid sleepless nights of worrying</p>
<p>programmable logic controllers (PLC's) or their smaller equivalents (programmable relays) are extremely reliable</p>
<p>I have very good experience with Siemens Logo! (available in 12V version)</p>
<p>back to pumps:</p>
<p>a piston pump is very energy efficient in that is is a positive displacement pump</p>
<p>which means that every movement of the pump positively displaces a certain amount of the medium you wish to pump</p>
<p>piston pumps do that, just like rag pumps or bucket pumps, worm pumps, gear pumps, diaphragm pumps etc... even a propeller pump is a positive displacement pump</p>
<p>if you are interested in pumps, see Russell D. Hoffman's "all about pumps" for glossary and explanation of nearly all existing pumps:</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/pumpglos.htm" target="_blank">http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/pumpglos.htm</a></p>
<p>warning: don't go to the next link if you are not prepared to be absorbed for at least a few hours of fascinating discovery and learning ;-))):</p>
<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.animatedsoftware.com./elearning/All%20About%20Pumps/aapumps.html" target="_blank">http://www.animatedsoftware.com./elearning/All%20About%20Pumps/aapu...</a><br/>
<p>sit back, relax, click,read, learn and enjoy (won't be hearing from you for a while, grin)</p>
<p>I encourage you to buy Russell's CD-Rom</p>
<p>Frank</p>
<p>PS using the in my previous post mentioned equation it is easy to calculate the theoretically needed energy to move your water around</p>
<p>you will be amazed at how little this is</p>
<p>but then there is friction and the ensuing heat and sound and wear, all losses</p>
<p>and there is good design to minimise these</p>
<p>or poor design to maximise them</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p> This is an exact replication…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-08-13:4778851:Comment:1795252011-08-13T07:00:19.696ZKobus Joostehttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/KobusJooste
This is an exact replication of what was recommended by UVI for their HD set-up. It is a large greenhouse, but they recommend .75 kW water circulation and 1.2 kW air agitation. They have way too much fish for my needs, thus it is possible to scale back. Because they had such detailed production data, I could use their system best to model electricity consumption, fish food requirements, water use, labour and yield for a business model I worked on. <br></br><br></br><cite>the mad german…</cite>
This is an exact replication of what was recommended by UVI for their HD set-up. It is a large greenhouse, but they recommend .75 kW water circulation and 1.2 kW air agitation. They have way too much fish for my needs, thus it is possible to scale back. Because they had such detailed production data, I could use their system best to model electricity consumption, fish food requirements, water use, labour and yield for a business model I worked on. <br/><br/><cite>the mad german said:</cite>
<blockquote><div><p>2KW an hour Kobus?</p>
<p>Wow! Ever thought of using a a gravity fed storage tank mounted up high with a DC solar application to fill it?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I would love to play in your sand box if SA wasn't so dang far away.</p>
</div>
</blockquote> I find this part of the discu…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-08-13:4778851:Comment:1796052011-08-13T06:54:31.864ZKobus Joostehttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/KobusJooste
<p>I find this part of the discussion very interesting Frank. Electronic components have bnever been the focus of my thoughts - only the fact that I did not like how much power they needed. I also agree with your comments on air bubble characteristics in water aeration (which is why I have not bothered with them in my research or my home system). </p>
<p> </p>
<p>What I have been wondering about of late is to look for something mechanical that can operate on the principle of the air lift…</p>
<p>I find this part of the discussion very interesting Frank. Electronic components have bnever been the focus of my thoughts - only the fact that I did not like how much power they needed. I also agree with your comments on air bubble characteristics in water aeration (which is why I have not bothered with them in my research or my home system). </p>
<p> </p>
<p>What I have been wondering about of late is to look for something mechanical that can operate on the principle of the air lift meets the wind pump. If we are only lifting a meter in the air (if we design around small height differences to begin with), can pistons be more efficient? A solid tube with a capacity of around half a gallon sucking from the bottom and emptying at the top the same way a wind-driven water pump would do, but you operate the piston with an efficient motor. If I recall correctly, the Friendly commercial system operated by Green Acre only have to move 12 gallons per minute. Can a motor-driven piston be more efficient than a pump? Not calculating the resistive forces of the cylinder, you are only lifting about 2 kg at a time. <br/><br/><cite>Frank De Block-Burij (hygicell) said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><p>you should all try and calculate the energy efficiency of your pumps:</p>
<p>I have done so on a regular basis and found that all pumps bar none (found so far) are a shame</p>
<p>that is the result of poor design: all of these (centrifugal) pumps are designed for heads of about 30 m which is far higher than we need (1-2 m)</p>
</div>
</blockquote> Frank I agree, and in a round…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-08-13:4778851:Comment:1795232011-08-13T06:28:33.979Zthe mad germanhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/themadgerman
<p>Frank I agree, and in a roundabout way pointed that out to TC. I have a friend that has a motor rewind shop and to think in this day and age the formula for the motor rewinding application is almost exactly as it was 40 years to go when considering the electricty to to horsepower conversion work ratio.</p>
<p>Now VFDs are a whole differant ballgame, but then you get into using an analog or binary signal which then needs a pid loop program to tell it what to do, blah, blah, blah…</p>
<p>Frank I agree, and in a roundabout way pointed that out to TC. I have a friend that has a motor rewind shop and to think in this day and age the formula for the motor rewinding application is almost exactly as it was 40 years to go when considering the electricty to to horsepower conversion work ratio.</p>
<p>Now VFDs are a whole differant ballgame, but then you get into using an analog or binary signal which then needs a pid loop program to tell it what to do, blah, blah, blah etc.</p>
<p>2KW an hour Kobus?</p>
<p>Wow! Ever thought of using a a gravity fed storage tank mounted up high with a DC solar application to fill it?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I would love to play in your sand box if SA wasn't so dang far away.</p> you should all try and calcul…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-08-13:4778851:Comment:1796022011-08-13T06:03:09.318ZFrank De Block-Burij (hygicell)https://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/FrankDeBlockBurij
<p>you should all try and calculate the energy efficiency of your pumps:</p>
<p>I have done so on a regular basis and found that all pumps bar none (found so far) are a shame</p>
<p>that is the result of poor design: all of these (centrifugal) pumps are designed for heads of about 30 m which is far higher than we need (1-2 m)</p>
<p>just take one look at the impeller of your pump and you will see at first sight that the most simple fluid dynamics are ignored</p>
<p>the formula is…</p>
<p>you should all try and calculate the energy efficiency of your pumps:</p>
<p>I have done so on a regular basis and found that all pumps bar none (found so far) are a shame</p>
<p>that is the result of poor design: all of these (centrifugal) pumps are designed for heads of about 30 m which is far higher than we need (1-2 m)</p>
<p>just take one look at the impeller of your pump and you will see at first sight that the most simple fluid dynamics are ignored</p>
<p>the formula is simple:</p>
<p>pump effect (in kW) = head (in bar) x volume (in l/min) / 600</p>
<p>pump efficiency (in %) = pump effect (kW) / energy consumption (kW)</p>
<p>the results are deplorable: often much less than 3 %</p>
<p>(so if you find a pump with an efficiency of over 5 % make sure you let me and everybody else know)</p>
<p>imagine having a pump with an efficiency of 30 %: that would mean a 10 fold reduction of energy consumption</p>
<p>the solar panel system you need now would be able to drive 10 pumps !</p>
<p>air stones are also an illusion: as bubbles only become efficient at aeration if injected at over 7 m depth</p>
<p>the only result at aeration is obtained by the movement of the water, thus exposing it to air, where gas (oxygen) exchange is natural and automatic up to the saturation point</p>
<p>for low heads, the most efficient pump is TMO a propeller pump</p>
<p>you can buy all kind of propellers and motors from model boat stores</p>
<p>I really should start experimenting with the parts that have been lying around here for months now</p>
<p>Frank</p> Francios - it was 14 - 16 000…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-08-06:4778851:Comment:1714792011-08-06T15:43:18.956ZKobus Joostehttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/KobusJooste
Francios - it was 14 - 16 000 liters in total for the fish tanks (not per tank), with quite a large sump. The entire water volume was 60 000 liters with approximately 125 m2 plant space. I do not believe in any size fish tank where I cannot reach the centre point of it from the side - my 2500 liter research tank is just about as much as I like to have (a little too large actually)<br></br><br></br><cite>Francois Lemmer said:</cite>
<blockquote><div><p>14 000 litres per dam....</p>
<p>how much water in…</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
Francios - it was 14 - 16 000 liters in total for the fish tanks (not per tank), with quite a large sump. The entire water volume was 60 000 liters with approximately 125 m2 plant space. I do not believe in any size fish tank where I cannot reach the centre point of it from the side - my 2500 liter research tank is just about as much as I like to have (a little too large actually)<br/><br/><cite>Francois Lemmer said:</cite>
<blockquote><div><p>14 000 litres per dam....</p>
<p>how much water in the system ?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>this system had a footprint of 120 sq.meters and a total of 12 000 l water</p>
</div>
</blockquote> 14 000 litres per dam....
how…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-08-06:4778851:Comment:1714742011-08-06T14:15:42.685ZFrancois Lemmerhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/FrancoisLemmer
<p>14 000 litres per dam....</p>
<p>how much water in the system ?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>this system had a footprint of 120 sq.meters and a total of 12 000 l water</p>
<p>14 000 litres per dam....</p>
<p>how much water in the system ?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>this system had a footprint of 120 sq.meters and a total of 12 000 l water</p> Thanks for the input Francios…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-08-06:4778851:Comment:1716302011-08-06T08:17:20.049ZKobus Joostehttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/KobusJooste
Thanks for the input Francios. I cannot guage scale from your pic though. The commercial design I have is for a total of 130 m2 plant grow space and 4 fish tanks identical in volume and fish stocking density to the UVI system - around 14 000 liters with high density stocking.<br></br><br></br><cite>Francois Lemmer said:</cite>
<blockquote><div><p>with my pilot project i kept things simple and cheap</p>
<p>i used a .75 kw pool pump pumping in cycles controled with the water level switching pump on and…</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
Thanks for the input Francios. I cannot guage scale from your pic though. The commercial design I have is for a total of 130 m2 plant grow space and 4 fish tanks identical in volume and fish stocking density to the UVI system - around 14 000 liters with high density stocking.<br/><br/><cite>Francois Lemmer said:</cite>
<blockquote><div><p>with my pilot project i kept things simple and cheap</p>
<p>i used a .75 kw pool pump pumping in cycles controled with the water level switching pump on and off and a air pump 24/7.</p>
<p>my electricity was minimum...250 kw per month +-8 kw per day+- 0.3 kw per hour</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a target="_self" href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2772187952?profile=original"><img width="400" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2772187952?profile=original" class="align-center"/></a></p>
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