KCl use in Aquaponics - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-29T10:41:06Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/kcl-use-in-aquaponics?groupUrl=threadjackers&commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A383561&groupId=4778851%3AGroup%3A296788&feed=yes&xn_auth=noCool. Thanks TC. In that case…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-19:4778851:Comment:3846052012-08-19T15:18:06.867ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Cool. Thanks TC. In that case it really probably isn't even necessary to adjust weight when using KCl, eh? I saw in that study they used like 250ppm (mg/L) chloride (so like 0.5ppt salt) for crazy nitrite numbers like 10 and even 20ppm...Looks like channel cats are real nitrite sensitive huh?</p>
<p>I dug up that issue on my hard drive. If posting the tidbit on nitrite here, for people to see, presents some type of problem, let me know and I'll delete it.</p>
<p>BYAP Magazine, Issue 1 Pg.…</p>
<p>Cool. Thanks TC. In that case it really probably isn't even necessary to adjust weight when using KCl, eh? I saw in that study they used like 250ppm (mg/L) chloride (so like 0.5ppt salt) for crazy nitrite numbers like 10 and even 20ppm...Looks like channel cats are real nitrite sensitive huh?</p>
<p>I dug up that issue on my hard drive. If posting the tidbit on nitrite here, for people to see, presents some type of problem, let me know and I'll delete it.</p>
<p>BYAP Magazine, Issue 1 Pg. 29</p>
<p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Nitrite</span><br/>At rates as low as 0.5ppm, nitrite can<br/>be harmful to your fish. Nitrite affects<br/>the ability of the fish’s gills to efficiently<br/>transfer oxygen to bloodstream. This<br/>issue becomes more significant at lower<br/>oxygen saturation levels, for example<br/>when the temperature of the water is<br/>high.<br/>It has been shown that the addition of<br/>chloride will reduce the absorption of<br/>nitrite across a fish’s gills and therefore<br/>assist in reducing the toxicity of nitrite.<br/>Salt (sodium chloride) added at a rate of<br/>17ppm (17 grams per 1000 litres) for each<br/>ppm of nitrite will reduce the effect of<br/>nitrite. Some people keep 1 gram per litre<br/>of salt in their systems on a permanent<br/>basis for therapeutic purposes, as a stress<br/>reliever and aid to disease recovery. Of<br/>course this level is more than enough<br/>to also complete the function of nitrite<br/>toxicity reduction.<br/>As salt will not entirely eliminate the<br/>harmful effects of nitrite and at higher<br/>concentrations can also affect the health</p>
<p>of some plants, the preferred method<br/>for guarding against nitrite poisoning<br/>is to ensure that cycling is properly<br/>completed and nitrite spikes are avoided<br/>by maintaining a balanced system. For<br/>example, avoid the temptation to make<br/>sudden significant increases in the rate<br/>of feeding. Also, ensure that preventative<br/>measures, such as water changes, are<br/>employed to address the short term<br/>inability of beneficial bacteria to process<br/>the increased production of nitrite (and<br/>ammonia) caused by any significant<br/>increase in fish population density.</p>
<p></p> FYI, for nitrite mitigation I…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-19:4778851:Comment:3845022012-08-19T12:29:52.309ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>FYI, for nitrite mitigation I don't think you actually have to salt all that high. I don't know if there is any way to link to the article in BYAP mag but in the first issue there is an article that gives the math stating how much salt is needed per ppm of nitrite and I think it was something like 17 ppm of salt per some amount of nitrite. But seeing as 1 ppt of salt is generally not detrimental to any plants or fish, it is an easy amount to salt to for protecting from…</p>
<p>FYI, for nitrite mitigation I don't think you actually have to salt all that high. I don't know if there is any way to link to the article in BYAP mag but in the first issue there is an article that gives the math stating how much salt is needed per ppm of nitrite and I think it was something like 17 ppm of salt per some amount of nitrite. But seeing as 1 ppt of salt is generally not detrimental to any plants or fish, it is an easy amount to salt to for protecting from nitrite.</p>
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<p>I know when I transport or move fish I've been salting the transport water to 3ppt and after the move this summer we didn't lose any fish in the immediate 2 weeks following the move (aside from one Bluegill that jumped.)</p> Ok...Jon while your out cavor…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-19:4778851:Comment:3842972012-08-19T10:47:28.889ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Ok...Jon while your out cavorting around town...I decided to "pencil out" some of the bitch work in the hope that you can then think about it and choose whether to apply it or not...It is your system after all :)</p>
<p>My hope is to be able to explain this properly (something I'm often not good at)...</p>
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<p>So, we've established that when salting for say, nitrite toxicity, it is the chloride ions that we're after.</p>
<p>We've established that the chloride content of NaCl is…</p>
<p>Ok...Jon while your out cavorting around town...I decided to "pencil out" some of the bitch work in the hope that you can then think about it and choose whether to apply it or not...It is your system after all :)</p>
<p>My hope is to be able to explain this properly (something I'm often not good at)...</p>
<p></p>
<p>So, we've established that when salting for say, nitrite toxicity, it is the chloride ions that we're after.</p>
<p>We've established that the chloride content of NaCl is 60.66% (round 61%)</p>
<p>We've established that the chloride content of KCl is 47.5% (round 48%)</p>
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<p>Now... The weight difference between the two...best I can figure...</p>
<p>The atomic weight of Na is 22.989blabla</p>
<p>The atomic weight of K is 39.0983</p>
<p>So, one 'cup' (or any arbitrary volumetric unit of measurement) of KCl 'should' be about 27% heavier than the same 'cup' of NaCl</p>
<p>You should easily be able to confirm this with a halfway decent scale and a bucket or whatever.</p>
<p>So the combined mass of potassium and chloride is about 27% heavier than sodium chloride.</p>
<p>That means that the same volume of KCl is carrying 27% (or so) less ions in your water stream.</p>
<p>So, it would seem that you need to adjust for such differences if using the NaCl dosing method TC was kind enough to lay out for us all. <a href="http://www.aquaponiclynx.com/salt-for-fish-health" target="_blank">http://www.aquaponiclynx.com/salt-for-fish-health</a> Adding at least about 30% more KCl weight-wise would seem like a good start.</p>
<p>I don't know about the salinity meters you mentioned, but I do know that when using an EC meter, t<span>he conductivity, or mobility of different salts varies widely, and is determined by factors such as the 'size' of the ions, the number of ions and the 'charge density' on these particles in solution. For example...the conductivities at 25</span><sup>O</sup><span>C (77</span><sup>O</sup><span>F) of 500ppm water based solutions of sodium chloride are 1.02 mS/cm, while potassium chloride is 0.95 mS/cm.</span></p>
<p><span><span>So, a 500ppm solution of potassium chloride has about 27% fewer ions to carry the current than a 500ppm solution of sodium chloride...again, due to the fact that the combined mass of potassium and chloride is 27% heavier than sodium chloride.</span></span></p>
<p>At any rate, <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">when targeting a system wide 1ppt chloride salting</span></strong>...just on the basis of weight difference alone it seems like one should add about 30% more (in weight) KCl...</p>
<p>As far as how the different salts relate to applications like intensive salt baths to kill parasites/mitigate bacterial/fungal diseases I haven't a clue. (I have some guesses as to the mechanisms at play, but would not like to air them, lest someone somewhere mistake/misrepresent them for solid info). I would like to know more about it, and probably people like Mathew Farrel or RupertofOz could shed more light and how exactly 3-5ppt salt baths do their magic...</p>
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<p></p> @TC Well, it seems that the i…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-19:4778851:Comment:3842932012-08-19T07:39:29.684ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>@TC Well, it seems that the important thing, really, is that people know that <span>salting the system to about 1 ppt with a chloride salt could help save fish during a nitrite spike.</span></p>
<p><span>The next important thing there would then seem to be, that folks know how to go about measuring and weighing how much salt to add to their particular system to get to a given ppt... …</span></p>
<p>@TC Well, it seems that the important thing, really, is that people know that <span>salting the system to about 1 ppt with a chloride salt could help save fish during a nitrite spike.</span></p>
<p><span>The next important thing there would then seem to be, that folks know how to go about measuring and weighing how much salt to add to their particular system to get to a given ppt... <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.aquaponiclynx.com/salt-for-fish-health">http://www.aquaponiclynx.com/salt-for-fish-health</a><span><br/></span></span></p>
<p><span>Knowing exactly how/why something works is hardly always a necessity...but it sure is nice sometimes :)</span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>@Jon, the difference in physical weight you alluded to earlier...Theoretically, a bit more KCl <em>would</em> seem to be called for.... The difference in <strong><em>chloride content</em></strong>, 60.66% for NaCl and 47.5% for KCL would suggest (depending on how you went about dosing and all) that <strong><em>in terms of chloride content <span style="text-decoration: underline;">relative</span> to NaCl</em></strong>, you might be closer to 2.5ppt.</span></p>
<p><span>It may not really matter...that 0.5ppt, but just thought I'd throw it out there, in case it is important to you or your fish.</span></p>
<p><span>Hope the Sac tour was fun.</span></p>
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<p><span> </span></p> Don't worry, I think my chemi…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-18:4778851:Comment:3844042012-08-18T22:36:18.923ZEric Warwickhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/EricWarwick
<p>Don't worry, I think my chemistry teacher (trained in biology, taught both in the same class.) told me the Chlorine ion bonded to the Nitrite ion. <br></br> <br></br> <cite>TCLynx said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/kcl-use-in-aquaponics?groupUrl=threadjackers&commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A384324&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum#4778851Comment384324"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I expect that bit of mis-information is really mostly due…</p>
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<p>Don't worry, I think my chemistry teacher (trained in biology, taught both in the same class.) told me the Chlorine ion bonded to the Nitrite ion. <br/> <br/> <cite>TCLynx said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/kcl-use-in-aquaponics?groupUrl=threadjackers&commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A384324&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum#4778851Comment384324"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I expect that bit of mis-information is really mostly due to those of us who don't really understand chemistry that well simply using the wrong terminology when describing that the chloride ions somehow help mitigate nitrite toxicity. I don't think I ever really fully understood how but only that salting the system to about 1 ppt could help save fish during a nitrite spike.</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Grin.gif"/></a></p>
<p>I'm ok with being corrected by the way, especially when you can explain it better than I.</p>
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</blockquote> I expect that bit of mis-info…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-18:4778851:Comment:3843242012-08-18T21:29:48.857ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>I expect that bit of mis-information is really mostly due to those of us who don't really understand chemistry that well simply using the wrong terminology when describing that the chloride ions somehow help mitigate nitrite toxicity. I don't think I ever really fully understood how but only that salting the system to about 1 ppt could help save fish during a nitrite spike.</p>
<p><a style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Grin.gif"></img></a></p>
<p>I'm ok with being corrected by the way, especially when you…</p>
<p>I expect that bit of mis-information is really mostly due to those of us who don't really understand chemistry that well simply using the wrong terminology when describing that the chloride ions somehow help mitigate nitrite toxicity. I don't think I ever really fully understood how but only that salting the system to about 1 ppt could help save fish during a nitrite spike.</p>
<p><a style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Grin.gif"/></a></p>
<p>I'm ok with being corrected by the way, especially when you can explain it better than I.</p> Thank you, Vlad, the binding…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-18:4778851:Comment:3840932012-08-18T17:32:24.503ZEric Warwickhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/EricWarwick
<p>Thank you, Vlad, the binding argument never made sense to me. Jon: good luck! I hope to see good results.</p>
<p>Thank you, Vlad, the binding argument never made sense to me. Jon: good luck! I hope to see good results.</p> TC, in regards to point C ...…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-18:4778851:Comment:3843072012-08-18T13:40:36.657ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>TC, in regards to point C ...</p>
<p>I know Sylvia had some gentleman write up a blog or whatever here where that bit about chloride binding to nitrite and all was mentioned...but it appears absolutely untrue. Back when I read that statement, it seemed a little fishy too me (kinda like saying "two negative poles of a magnet will attract one another), so I looked it up and posted/linked the study in the "books, articles and links thread" here it is again (its a very short and easy to…</p>
<p>TC, in regards to point C ...</p>
<p>I know Sylvia had some gentleman write up a blog or whatever here where that bit about chloride binding to nitrite and all was mentioned...but it appears absolutely untrue. Back when I read that statement, it seemed a little fishy too me (kinda like saying "two negative poles of a magnet will attract one another), so I looked it up and posted/linked the study in the "books, articles and links thread" here it is again (its a very short and easy to understand study)</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www-heb.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/congress/1994/tomasso.pdf" target="_blank">http://www-heb.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/congress/1994/tomasso.pdf</a></p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/group/books_documentaries_articles_links/forum/topics/articles-and-links">http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/group/books_documentaries_a...</a></p>
<p>Chloride mitigates nitrite toxicity by a mechanism called 'competitive inhibition'. There is no "binding" going on between chloride (a negative ion) and nitrite (also a negative ion)...Rather the chloride ions take up space on the fishy's gills where normally the nitrite ions would, effectively blocking the pathway for the nitrite to attach themselves and do their damage.</p>
<p>Same way (competitive inhibition) that say, our 'good' bacteria out compete pythium (or whatever) for space/resources in our AP systems.</p>
<p>Not to be a stickler or a dick, but I see that bit of (mis)info in various places in AP-internet land and well..."we know stuff now"... :)</p>
<p>So the chloride 'blocks' the nitrites from entering/attaching to the fishes system and does not bind the nitrite in any known way.</p>
<p>@Jon...Sweet! Keep us posted (this is exciting in a geek-ish sorta way). </p> Well I hope to hear some good…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-18:4778851:Comment:3841622012-08-18T12:58:07.053ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>Well I hope to hear some good result Jon. </p>
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<p>Now I have definitely seen drastic results treating tilapia with salt especially when I have a stressed out female that looked like she had fin rot (but it was probably more likely that she was just getting chewed up by the male.) Anyway, I removed her to a separate tank and salted the system and she recovered quickly.</p>
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<p>Now I know that salt helps the fish in a few ways.</p>
<p>A-improving slime coat (not sure which part…</p>
<p>Well I hope to hear some good result Jon. </p>
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<p>Now I have definitely seen drastic results treating tilapia with salt especially when I have a stressed out female that looked like she had fin rot (but it was probably more likely that she was just getting chewed up by the male.) Anyway, I removed her to a separate tank and salted the system and she recovered quickly.</p>
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<p>Now I know that salt helps the fish in a few ways.</p>
<p>A-improving slime coat (not sure which part of the salt takes care of this)</p>
<p>B-being an electrolyte it helps with the osmotic pressure and allowing the fish to balance themselves better. This one I figure should be useful by either sodium or potassium chloride.</p>
<p>C-The Chloride ions can bind with the nitrite and help protect the fish from the nitrite and this one I expect can be filled by either.</p> Hehe.
So, in a rash decision…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-18:4778851:Comment:3842592012-08-18T11:49:35.601ZJon Parrhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/JonParr
Hehe.<br />
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So, in a rash decision to try KCl as a treatment for fish parasites, I just went ahead and added a 3 ppt to a tropical tank containing tilapia, red claws, and pangasius catfish. Why? Well, one of the catfish recently jumped out of the tank and has got cloudy eyes and pale color, I don't know if it's a stress related outbreak, or actual physical damage from flopping on the concrete with those bulging eyes they have. And one of the tilapia is paling, which I have experienced before, always…
Hehe.<br />
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So, in a rash decision to try KCl as a treatment for fish parasites, I just went ahead and added a 3 ppt to a tropical tank containing tilapia, red claws, and pangasius catfish. Why? Well, one of the catfish recently jumped out of the tank and has got cloudy eyes and pale color, I don't know if it's a stress related outbreak, or actual physical damage from flopping on the concrete with those bulging eyes they have. And one of the tilapia is paling, which I have experienced before, always slowly ending in a single weaker and weaker fish that dies, while the remaining tilapia are unaffected. I never treated the previous symptomatic tilapia (lazy, one fish didn't cause a panic), but thought I'd give it a whirl with KCl in lieu of NaCl. Two days, so far so good. There are berried craws, and brooding tilapia, no ill temper among those either. TC never got an answer from her fish experts concerning the substitution of KCl for NaCl, so this experiment should add some data to the puzzle. Cross my fingers.