KALKWASSER IN AQUAPONICS??? - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-29T12:21:02Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/kalkwater-in-aquaponics?feed=yes&xn_auth=noAnd because of that your bact…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-12-12:4778851:Comment:5360202013-12-12T23:07:43.785ZSteve Rhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/steveraisner
<p>And because of that your bacteria is replicating at 5% of what it would be at 40ppm. You also claimed your system was at 0 which its clearly not if its almost at 20. Its far from ideal and your actively hurting your plants for absolutely no benefit at all. I literally jsut went to an entire presentation but one of the if not the expert on aquaponic bacteria cultures and he had an entire piece on growth rates of bacteria below 40ppm. It absolutely cripples your colonization and bacteria…</p>
<p>And because of that your bacteria is replicating at 5% of what it would be at 40ppm. You also claimed your system was at 0 which its clearly not if its almost at 20. Its far from ideal and your actively hurting your plants for absolutely no benefit at all. I literally jsut went to an entire presentation but one of the if not the expert on aquaponic bacteria cultures and he had an entire piece on growth rates of bacteria below 40ppm. It absolutely cripples your colonization and bacteria replication. Will it happen yes but no where near as fast. There are many ways to skin a cat but it doesn't mean its right. I can lower my PH with vinegar it will work but its a horrible idea hydrates are no different. Again you also can not keep invertebrates alive which is widely kept in aquaponics and you are going out of your way to destabilize your PH and compromise bacteria replication. You still haven't addressed the fact that you cant kept shrimp in an hydrates system. hydrates come from people in the hydroponic industry where you aren't using bacteria for your chemical break downs. this is aquaponics and we need those bacteria to help us. this is why hydrates are vastly inferior. hydrates are more money per year more work and less stable for slower growth in bacteria and plants against your only hurting your own system by using hydrates. I know you can control PH with hydrates is it possible absolutely but its not ideal if you want to grow plants inverts or fish. Another thing about your bacteria. To answer your question your bacteria fully colonized the tank before you stripped out the carbonates. i highly doubt you used R/o water so i know you had lots of carbonates in the beginning to colonize your system. You then striped them down slowing your bacteria growth to the point now where its just able to keep up. Point is you didn't colonize your system with carbonates that low and its cycled now so even if they are at 5% of what they could be you'l be ok because there is enough at this point but if your PH got away from you because you missed one dosing for your hydrates your whole system will crash and you will spend MONTHS trying to recolonize a tank with no carbonates. You are also actively adding carbonates every time you top that system off unless your using R/o. Dr. Nate is totally and utterly wrong about the PH crashes in carbonates unless you never maintain them until this horrible info gets whipped from the internet we will still have people who for some horrible reason turn to hydrates over carbonates for practical keeping. I have kept or maintained well over 10,000 bodies of water at this point in my life with and with out terrestrial plants and i can tell you from first hand experience your PH will not randomly crash unless you never dose carbonates. Its an urban legend. </p> Can you please tell me why my…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-12-12:4778851:Comment:5359562013-12-12T22:28:53.912ZBenjamin Udy - Super Geniushttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/Ben205
<p>Can you please tell me why my bacterial colony is thriving even though I have been depriving them of their one and only source of carbon? I even recently added 25 tilapia fry to my system at home a few weeks back (pH is also exclusively adjusted with hydroxides) and saw an initial ammonia spike (up to about .25 ppm) but has since dropped back down to 0 ppm. It's almost as if the bio-filter has adjusted and is compensating for the ammonia increase, but that's impossible given my current KH…</p>
<p>Can you please tell me why my bacterial colony is thriving even though I have been depriving them of their one and only source of carbon? I even recently added 25 tilapia fry to my system at home a few weeks back (pH is also exclusively adjusted with hydroxides) and saw an initial ammonia spike (up to about .25 ppm) but has since dropped back down to 0 ppm. It's almost as if the bio-filter has adjusted and is compensating for the ammonia increase, but that's impossible given my current KH level of ≤ 17.9 ppm. Some omniscient insight as to why this may be would be greatly appreciated. </p>
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<p><br/> <cite>Steve R said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/kalkwater-in-aquaponics?xg_source=activity&id=4778851%3ATopic%3A420853&page=5#4778851Comment535953"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I think your missing the fact that you need a bare min of carbonate to maintain your bacteria and your plants. all life forms on earth need carbonate to make new cells why on earth would you intentionally starve them of this it makes literally no sense at all? I don't think your understanding that bacteria cant make more bacteria at all below that level it just cant make new cells. all life on earth that we know of is carbon based so why starve them of it again make no sense. There is only downsides to using hydrates which is why its been almost entirely phased out in the aquarium trade and replaced with carbonate based systems. Fish, Plants, corals, Inverts all grow fast better faster and healthier in that environment this has been proven and tested around the glow by companies like seachem and other major producers of chemicals for aquatic life. I was literally floored when I heard some one was stilling using hydrates for PH stability. The people pushing hydrates just want you to buy more powder from them because they know it uses more per year so you spend more. Its more profitable for them if your buying from them all the time because your going through hydrates constantly. Carbonates are VASTLY more efficient. Its simply in no way more cost efficient or less labor with worse results. Again why severely compromise your system? You also could not keep shrimp or crayfish alive in a hydrates based system there shells won't harden properly with out carbonates so hydrates CAN NOT BE USED if you are keeping inverts AT ALL. Again why use something that limits you so much?<br/> <br/> <cite>Benjamin said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/kalkwater-in-aquaponics?id=4778851%3ATopic%3A420853&page=5#4778851Comment535759"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Well I have successfully sustained my bio-filter for 6+ months with little to no carbonates. If you talked to Dr. Nate Storey of Bright Agrotech I'm sure he could also attest to sustaining a bio filter with similar conditions for many many years longer than I have. If I have a fish die, or have an ammonia spike for any given reason, due to the fact that I maintain my pH in the mid to high 6's, it's going to mostly be in the NH4 (ammonium) form, which is going to be a bit more forgiving when it comes to fish health. But regardless, I have seen no decrease in my bio-filter's ability to efficiently and effectively convert ammonia to nitrates. So given that rock solid first hand experience, I would say that though it might be true that 40 ppm kh is that "ideal" amount, you can still run a system with great success at lower levels and due to the fact that it gives the user the ability to supplement other nutrients on a more regular basis, you can have greater control over your system. And Carbonates are one of MANY factors that have an effect on pH in any natural or man made ecosystem. </p>
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</blockquote> I think your missing the fact…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-12-12:4778851:Comment:5359532013-12-12T21:11:54.063ZSteve Rhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/steveraisner
<p>I think your missing the fact that you need a bare min of carbonate to maintain your bacteria and your plants. all life forms on earth need carbonate to make new cells why on earth would you intentionally starve them of this it makes literally no sense at all? I don't think your understanding that bacteria cant make more bacteria at all below that level it just cant make new cells. all life on earth that we know of is carbon based so why starve them of it again make no sense. There is only…</p>
<p>I think your missing the fact that you need a bare min of carbonate to maintain your bacteria and your plants. all life forms on earth need carbonate to make new cells why on earth would you intentionally starve them of this it makes literally no sense at all? I don't think your understanding that bacteria cant make more bacteria at all below that level it just cant make new cells. all life on earth that we know of is carbon based so why starve them of it again make no sense. There is only downsides to using hydrates which is why its been almost entirely phased out in the aquarium trade and replaced with carbonate based systems. Fish, Plants, corals, Inverts all grow fast better faster and healthier in that environment this has been proven and tested around the glow by companies like seachem and other major producers of chemicals for aquatic life. I was literally floored when I heard some one was stilling using hydrates for PH stability. The people pushing hydrates just want you to buy more powder from them because they know it uses more per year so you spend more. Its more profitable for them if your buying from them all the time because your going through hydrates constantly. Carbonates are VASTLY more efficient. Its simply in no way more cost efficient or less labor with worse results. Again why severely compromise your system? You also could not keep shrimp or crayfish alive in a hydrates based system there shells won't harden properly with out carbonates so hydrates CAN NOT BE USED if you are keeping inverts AT ALL. Again why use something that limits you so much?<br/> <br/> <cite>Benjamin said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/kalkwater-in-aquaponics?id=4778851%3ATopic%3A420853&page=5#4778851Comment535759"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Well I have successfully sustained my bio-filter for 6+ months with little to no carbonates. If you talked to Dr. Nate Storey of Bright Agrotech I'm sure he could also attest to sustaining a bio filter with similar conditions for many many years longer than I have. If I have a fish die, or have an ammonia spike for any given reason, due to the fact that I maintain my pH in the mid to high 6's, it's going to mostly be in the NH4 (ammonium) form, which is going to be a bit more forgiving when it comes to fish health. But regardless, I have seen no decrease in my bio-filter's ability to efficiently and effectively convert ammonia to nitrates. So given that rock solid first hand experience, I would say that though it might be true that 40 ppm kh is that "ideal" amount, you can still run a system with great success at lower levels and due to the fact that it gives the user the ability to supplement other nutrients on a more regular basis, you can have greater control over your system. And Carbonates are one of MANY factors that have an effect on pH in any natural or man made ecosystem. </p>
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</blockquote> Personally I completely disag…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-12-12:4778851:Comment:5357622013-12-12T01:52:13.739ZSteve Rhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/steveraisner
Personally I completely disagree with hydrates based balancing its simply not stable enough for the average aquaponics user who might go away for the weekend and not want to have to come home just to dose his hydrates. Not to mention with hydrates you use WAY more lbs per year of hydrates vs carbonates. More dosing means more money per year.
Personally I completely disagree with hydrates based balancing its simply not stable enough for the average aquaponics user who might go away for the weekend and not want to have to come home just to dose his hydrates. Not to mention with hydrates you use WAY more lbs per year of hydrates vs carbonates. More dosing means more money per year. Well I have successfully sust…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-12-12:4778851:Comment:5357592013-12-12T01:44:57.818ZBenjamin Udy - Super Geniushttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/Ben205
<p>Well I have successfully sustained my bio-filter for 6+ months with little to no carbonates. If you talked to Dr. Nate Storey of Bright Agrotech I'm sure he could also attest to sustaining a bio filter with similar conditions for many many years longer than I have. If I have a fish die, or have an ammonia spike for any given reason, due to the fact that I maintain my pH in the mid to high 6's, it's going to mostly be in the NH4 (ammonium) form, which is going to be a bit more forgiving when…</p>
<p>Well I have successfully sustained my bio-filter for 6+ months with little to no carbonates. If you talked to Dr. Nate Storey of Bright Agrotech I'm sure he could also attest to sustaining a bio filter with similar conditions for many many years longer than I have. If I have a fish die, or have an ammonia spike for any given reason, due to the fact that I maintain my pH in the mid to high 6's, it's going to mostly be in the NH4 (ammonium) form, which is going to be a bit more forgiving when it comes to fish health. But regardless, I have seen no decrease in my bio-filter's ability to efficiently and effectively convert ammonia to nitrates. So given that rock solid first hand experience, I would say that though it might be true that 40 ppm kh is that "ideal" amount, you can still run a system with great success at lower levels and due to the fact that it gives the user the ability to supplement other nutrients on a more regular basis, you can have greater control over your system. And Carbonates are one of MANY factors that have an effect on pH in any natural or man made ecosystem. </p> You have to have at least 40…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-12-12:4778851:Comment:5358032013-12-12T00:51:48.194ZSteve Rhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/steveraisner
You have to have at least 40 ppm carbonates in order to sustain your bacteria colony's long term so that would be your bare min even if you were going to use hydroxides. In my opinion its just too dangerous keeping your kh that low. What if for example your fish dies or spawns these both can cause a fairly fast increase in ammonia which could easily get ahead of you and crash your pH in a system with little or no buffer. If I'm missing something I'm all ears but my understanding is that the…
You have to have at least 40 ppm carbonates in order to sustain your bacteria colony's long term so that would be your bare min even if you were going to use hydroxides. In my opinion its just too dangerous keeping your kh that low. What if for example your fish dies or spawns these both can cause a fairly fast increase in ammonia which could easily get ahead of you and crash your pH in a system with little or no buffer. If I'm missing something I'm all ears but my understanding is that the hydrates system was designed buy some one with a hydroponic background and hence why they want that control. The problem is that's far from Ideal if you don't want to have to check your system everyday and the low carbonates slow bacteria colonization among other issues. In the wild carbonates are the source of pH stability that's how plants evolved to use why change that? Thanks for the input Steve. I…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-12-12:4778851:Comment:5357582013-12-12T00:41:45.837ZBenjamin Udy - Super Geniushttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/Ben205
<p>Thanks for the input Steve. I hadn't read this post in a while and forgot how much awesome info it contains. Most of which came from Vlad, so thanks Vlad you're awesome and possibly a mad scientist :) Anyway in regards to your comment I definitely agree with the part about exclusively using hydroxides doesn't allow much time away from your system. I have a system set up in my office and buffer the pH exclusively with hydroxides. I've been doing so for about 6 months. Without any carbonates…</p>
<p>Thanks for the input Steve. I hadn't read this post in a while and forgot how much awesome info it contains. Most of which came from Vlad, so thanks Vlad you're awesome and possibly a mad scientist :) Anyway in regards to your comment I definitely agree with the part about exclusively using hydroxides doesn't allow much time away from your system. I have a system set up in my office and buffer the pH exclusively with hydroxides. I've been doing so for about 6 months. Without any carbonates in the water (except for the small amount that enter from the fill water) I'm constantly having to add either KOH or Ca(OH)2, usually every other day. It's a pretty small system (about 40 gallons of water) so it only takes a small amount but still I have to do it every other day. I have found that 1/4 tsp of KOH & 1/4 tsp of Ca(OH)2 takes my pH from 6.6 to 6.8. (approximately 7.5 OZ a year of each) In this system I have successfully grown peppers, tomatoes and about a dozen different kinds of leafy greens. I have One massive Oscar fish, an African Cichlid, an upside down cat and a Plecostomus. All of the fish are in perfect health very large. I have experimented with keeping the water temp from low 70's all the way up to mid 80's. I have even neglected the system for weeks (it happens when you have a 12 month old baby ;) and upon my return from my aquaponics hiatus I would test the water with my API master kit and would get a pH reading of 6.0. Now that is the lowest that the color chart will read but that doesn't mean that's where my water's pH was. After adding about 1 tsp of both KOH and Ca(OH)2, the pH finally came back up to about 6.6. So given my earlier data on my pH maintenance, that would put the pH somewhere down in the low 5's. </p>
<p>So using hydroxides exclusively DOES mean that you will have to monitor you system more carefully than if you were "buffering" with carbonates or even a combination of the two. But for a lot of people that is a very good thing. It gives me greater control over my system. If I need to supplement some K or Ca I can do so quite freely. As far fish health goes it didn't really appear to bother my fish at all and there have been multiple occasions where I went some time neglecting my office system. I would have to hypothesize that's because the acidification of the water was gradual over a couple weeks the fish adjusted to it. I also tested NH3, NO2 and NO3 and saw no change. </p>
<p>I love to see a study done on plant growth and different KH levels and a comparison of plant growth at zero carbonates and then at increasing levels. Maybe some plants are more sensitive to it than others. </p> The issue is PH isnt stable a…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-12-09:4778851:Comment:5351172013-12-09T23:46:23.966ZSteve Rhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/steveraisner
<p>The issue is PH isnt stable at 40ppm. I just talked to some one TODAY with 40ppm and a bouncing PH. hydrates are fine if you are in a lab and can adjust all the time say twice daily but are not teh way to go in an aquaponic system where you might not see your system for a day or more + at a time. You need the ability for the water to maintain itself for a given period of time with out changing to much. if your ppm is at 40 and you have one fish die or your fan in the greeen house stops and…</p>
<p>The issue is PH isnt stable at 40ppm. I just talked to some one TODAY with 40ppm and a bouncing PH. hydrates are fine if you are in a lab and can adjust all the time say twice daily but are not teh way to go in an aquaponic system where you might not see your system for a day or more + at a time. You need the ability for the water to maintain itself for a given period of time with out changing to much. if your ppm is at 40 and you have one fish die or your fan in the greeen house stops and your temps rise in your water your PH WILL CRASH and you will kill everything in your system. Can you get tight control with hydrates absolutely is it what you should use for aquaponics absolutely not. The other MAJOR reason is the fact that quite a few plants make benefit directly from absorbing carbonates into there root system. So why would you deprive your plants of something they want and replace it with something that doesn't stabilize your water or add anything for your plants? PH will only crash if your alkalinity is below 50ppm high or lower depending on your temp and CO2 but anything below that is dangerous and risking your entire system. You are FAR better off buffering your alkalinity up and letting that drop from an 8 to a 4 or a 10 to 6 and maintaining a stable PH than trying to hastle with keeping the KH low and hydrates high it will be far more complicated and not beneficial in any way. While hydrates work in theory they are far from the best choice when it come to practicality and actually keeping things alive and stable over the long term.<br/> <br/> <cite>Benjamin said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/kalkwater-in-aquaponics?id=4778851%3ATopic%3A420853&page=4#4778851Comment444597"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hey Vlad, </p>
<p>I got another question for you. You had said after digging a little deeper on the kH argument between Rupe and Nate you said you would have to side with Nate. But what I got from Nate's video is that it sounds like he believes you don't need any carbonates in the water at all. Whereas, you said "<strong>If you keep a tight control over the amount of carbonates in your system, (not dipping below the threshold amount which supplies our nitrifiers with the requisite carbon species food source of course), you, as the operator, are afforded a spectacular level of pH control (by the use of hydroxides)</strong>". So limiting the amount of carbonates you put into your system just gives you far better control over your pH but there is still a need for maintaining your kH at that certain threshold, somewhere around 40 ppm? Thanks</p>
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</blockquote> Well...hmm...yes and no. I al…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-03-05:4778851:Comment:4451062013-03-05T02:24:12.574ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Well...hmm...yes and no. I also said that I didn't think that there was anything "magically delicious" about carbonate alkalinity...other than providing a convenient carbon species food source for the bacteria.</p>
<p>I'll have to re-watch that video...but Nate is in fact adding some carbonates to his system (albeit probably less than most of us) every time he adds dolomitic lime. </p>
<p>Yes, "conventional wisdom" from the world of aquaria and waste water treatment studies say 40ppm is the…</p>
<p>Well...hmm...yes and no. I also said that I didn't think that there was anything "magically delicious" about carbonate alkalinity...other than providing a convenient carbon species food source for the bacteria.</p>
<p>I'll have to re-watch that video...but Nate is in fact adding some carbonates to his system (albeit probably less than most of us) every time he adds dolomitic lime. </p>
<p>Yes, "conventional wisdom" from the world of aquaria and waste water treatment studies say 40ppm is the threshold, so that would be the solid and responsible number to advise...but honestly...(and I'm probably going to regret saying this out loud, here...but) in an AP set and setting I think even that number can <em>potentially</em> be 'much' lower. Though how much lower and in exactly what settings. I don't really know. It would take far more sophisticated equipment (and time) than I can afford. I have the same crummy kH test kit that everyone else has, and diluting dH readings readings will only get one so far...and isn't exactly 'reliable'.</p>
<p>Seeing as how their is no aquaponic "industry" to speak of to fund such little research projects, and as far as I'm aware the Aquaponic Association isn't funding such a thing either...and that such knowledge couldn't possibly be of any benefit to neither the RAS industry, nor the hydroponic industry, nor the waste water treatment industry, we probably wont be finding out anytime real soon.</p> Hey Vlad,
I got another ques…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-03-04:4778851:Comment:4445972013-03-04T23:10:07.205ZBenjamin Udy - Super Geniushttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/Ben205
<p>Hey Vlad, </p>
<p>I got another question for you. You had said after digging a little deeper on the kH argument between Rupe and Nate you said you would have to side with Nate. But what I got from Nate's video is that it sounds like he believes you don't need any carbonates in the water at all. Whereas, you said "<strong>If you keep a tight control over the amount of carbonates in your system, (not dipping below the threshold amount which supplies our nitrifiers with the requisite carbon…</strong></p>
<p>Hey Vlad, </p>
<p>I got another question for you. You had said after digging a little deeper on the kH argument between Rupe and Nate you said you would have to side with Nate. But what I got from Nate's video is that it sounds like he believes you don't need any carbonates in the water at all. Whereas, you said "<strong>If you keep a tight control over the amount of carbonates in your system, (not dipping below the threshold amount which supplies our nitrifiers with the requisite carbon species food source of course), you, as the operator, are afforded a spectacular level of pH control (by the use of hydroxides)</strong>". So limiting the amount of carbonates you put into your system just gives you far better control over your pH but there is still a need for maintaining your kH at that certain threshold, somewhere around 40 ppm? Thanks</p>