Growing root vegtables question - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-29T11:01:37Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/growing-root-vegtables-question?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A429665&feed=yes&xn_auth=noAgreed. But "higher concentra…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-16:4778851:Comment:4296652013-01-16T10:55:10.665ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Agreed. But "higher concentrations" being the 3 to 5 ppt range commonly used to treat for fish parasites. Anything below 1ppt seems to be generally accepted as a 'soothing tonic' for our finned little friends.</p>
<p>Since KCl is only 52.5% K by weight 250 to 300ppm KCl is only 130 to 150ppm K. Which is smack in the low-ish middle common range used in soil-less culture. Again, I am not seeing that as excessive in the least for a non-mono cropping recirculating food production system. Quite…</p>
<p>Agreed. But "higher concentrations" being the 3 to 5 ppt range commonly used to treat for fish parasites. Anything below 1ppt seems to be generally accepted as a 'soothing tonic' for our finned little friends.</p>
<p>Since KCl is only 52.5% K by weight 250 to 300ppm KCl is only 130 to 150ppm K. Which is smack in the low-ish middle common range used in soil-less culture. Again, I am not seeing that as excessive in the least for a non-mono cropping recirculating food production system. Quite middle of the road really (59 to 300ppm). Particularly since Mike will be topping up further diluting that rather mediocre concentration. The addition seems like a grand way to 'buy some time' and have his plants do well, while he gets a handle on his pH, and his system, through the passage of time, has a chance to build up a store of such plant essential elements. Most people grow a 'wide' variety of things within the same system. This concentration of K seems not to negatively effect things like leafy greens, while catering to some of the more K hungry crowd. Which is why it was suggested.</p>
<p>Yes, I was aware that <em>some</em> plants can entire replace K with Na, while other plants cannot come even close...and suffer toxicity issues at even 'low' levels. It would seem that there exist both natriphobes as well as natriphiles in the plant kingdom.</p>
<p>The reason for the MAP extraction is in a phrase "2 much N" :)</p>
<p>It is difficult to cater to the needs of many cultivars, particularly flowering/fruiting ones when using just regular 'ol humonia. If you dose to obtain the needed K, the N content at those levels is just way too high for flowering/fruiting...and deleterious effects ensue...This has been the hamstring for pee-ponics, great for leafy greens, not so good for much else.</p>
<p>Also, I like to avoid purchasing mined minerals from industry if I can (in this case P), and drying, hammer crushing, then grinding and sifting bones has gotten old right quick (and I suspect that it rather upsets the missus...though bless her vegan heart she has never really berated me about it). I was also liking to keep things 'self sustainable' and stay within the realm of urine. This aspect appeals to me much more than using fish food harvested from the Oceans the way that it is these days, (or mined). And paying for the plethora of other resources and equipment keeping fish requires. All that additional electricity, air pumps, diffusers, back up power supplies, additional solids/mechanical filtration the time consuming maintenance that some of those filters require etc...But those type of things probably go beyond the scope of what you were asking. Anyways...</p>
<p>Another benefit is storage. It is much easier and takes less space for me to store the MAP. But, since I refuse to discard the K rich effluent it still all takes up some space.</p>
<p>I think I still have that old crooked photocopied NASA PDF study somewhere around here.</p>
<p>That sounds like a really interesting set up you have. Hey, since you are apparently already utilizing much of a freshwater lake ecosystem as a model, have you thought about putting some anoxic zones to good use redoxing iron? It might potentially be a good way to avoid having to add Fe-chelates to the system. Particularly since it seems like a nice balanced Zen ecosystem is what you are after, and you obviously have the intellect and attention to make such Fe redoxing work naturally within your system I would think.</p>
<p>Man, my head swims when I think of all the micro-niche nutrient cycles going on within you system that all those various organisms much be partaking in...</p> Go to sleep guy; just respond…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-16:4778851:Comment:4295552013-01-16T04:42:16.831ZIzzyhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/aquaponics
<p>Go to sleep guy; just respond tomorrow!</p>
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<p>Although it is quite common to use salt for the benefit of many freshwater species, most of the higher concentrations are done for short periods of time in a controlled fashion. Even if your fish survives, your FCR (food conversion ratio) decreases because the fish has to waste energy regulating the osmotic pressures. This has obvious economic impacts. Just because the fish survive doesn't mean there is no ill side effect, short term…</p>
<p>Go to sleep guy; just respond tomorrow!</p>
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<p>Although it is quite common to use salt for the benefit of many freshwater species, most of the higher concentrations are done for short periods of time in a controlled fashion. Even if your fish survives, your FCR (food conversion ratio) decreases because the fish has to waste energy regulating the osmotic pressures. This has obvious economic impacts. Just because the fish survive doesn't mean there is no ill side effect, short term or long term. The advice you gave was sound. I still think that was way too much K, but you can simply reduce the amount added for positive results. I did not mean to make it sound like I was disputing the reality that chloride ions could be used beneficially, but their benefit is far from ubiquitous.</p>
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<p>Yes, plants uptake Na in place of K quite readily. Did you know that (depending on species) plants can uptake up to 100% of their nutrient requirement as Na instead of K? Did you also know that most plants take on more succulent characteristics when they are supplemented Na for K? The trick is that most plants begin to show harmful effects from the Na concentration in solution (not sap) at lower levels. It's tricky to get them to take up the right quantity without damaging the plant (again, depends on cultured species). At the first aquaponics conference the horticultural lady from Disney discussed how their AP system used Na instead of K, but they had to monitor it regularly (keeping it below 50 ppm of ion concentration, if memory serves). She claimed the plants started exhibiting necrotic leaf tissue at higher concentrations.</p>
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<p>Interesting pee sludge! This is an area I would like to learn more about. Okay, I get the extraction process now for the Struvite/MAP. It seems like a great idea. I will read that link later, but a burning question in my mind is, why remove the P when you are trying to grow really big radishes! Haha :-) My first guess would be because the urine contains substantially more P than the N and K required for plant growth thereby accumulating in the system to toxic levels for the fish and possibly other biota? Anyway, it's nap time, but I will definitely read that link tomorrow. I once read (maybe still have) NASA research that was a 50 or some odd page document that was a complete chemical analysis of human urine. I believe it was published in the 1960's or something. I will look for it later if you are interested.</p>
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<p>The biota in my system do all the pH balancing (obviously, since I don't, haha). It does not gradually change over time. I allow for stratification of my water column. This coupled with the low stocking density and slow water flow create the perfect environment. Large amounts of carbon bioaccumulate in my system. The carbon comes from the atmosphere. I pretty much tried to mimic a freshwater lake ecosystem while allowing contingencies for the grow bed. When I test for nutrients, and that's N, P, K, Ca, and Iron, I can not get a reading above 0. The only way I even know to add iron is the plants show signs of chlorosis. Here is what I really think the secret is. I believe all available plant nutrients are absorbed into the cells of colloidally suspended microorganisms and through symbiotic relationships of some sort the plants extract the nutrients enough to appear perfectly healthy (except the iron deficiencies at times). ALL I CAN SAY DEFINITIVELY IS, IT @#$ING WORKS! ;-)</p>
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<p></p> Thanks Izzy. I'm gonna be so…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-16:4778851:Comment:4296552013-01-16T03:22:10.597ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Thanks Izzy. I'm gonna be so fucked in the A.M. :)</p>
<p>No, Tilapia are wholly inappropriate for these parts. It's Carp for me. I have a buddy who owns a large aquarium shop here, and lets me try "questionable" things out in some of his many tanks. Part of the reason I 'knew' the the chloride particularly at those levels would not harm the fish is that it is used to mitigate nitrite poisoning... …</p>
<p>Thanks Izzy. I'm gonna be so fucked in the A.M. :)</p>
<p>No, Tilapia are wholly inappropriate for these parts. It's Carp for me. I have a buddy who owns a large aquarium shop here, and lets me try "questionable" things out in some of his many tanks. Part of the reason I 'knew' the the chloride particularly at those levels would not harm the fish is that it is used to mitigate nitrite poisoning... <a href="http://www-heb.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/congress/1994/tomasso.pdf" target="_blank">http://www-heb.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/congress/1994/tomasso.pdf</a></p>
<p>I have yet to kill any fish with the KCl at those levels I suggested to Mike. Though if anyone is worried about upsetting Na/K osmotic regulatory mechanisms, honestly it seems like just adding some NaCl in near equal parts would take care of that. </p>
<p>Other people have had positive experiences salting to 1ppt (NaCl) for general fish health. It is even suggested by some of the "AP gods" I just figured why not replace the Na with K and use a salt that would be plant beneficial as well (yeah, yeah I know the two are somewhat interchangeable in plant/animal biology anyways). </p>
<p>Again, Izzy many long standing aquapons salt there systems to levels 4 to 6 times higher than those I suggested with no ill effects whatsoever (they actually salt to those levels for the <em>benefit</em> of the fish) Your suggestion that I gave advice that would result in a fish kill seemed silly and ridiculous...Hence the wise cracks and me just blowing you off as a loon. Glad we're past that now...Anyways...</p>
<p>The effluent I've 'discovered' is just what is left over once the phosphates have been extracted and the ammonia has been halved. There is no fuzzy fungi at all since I let the urea hydrolyse into ammonia first and the pH is then very fungal unfriendly. Though I've heard of 'ammonia fungi' in soil, I've not seen any in any of my plethoric storage containers.</p>
<p><a href="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/group/fish-less-systems/forum/topics/pee-ponics-flowering" target="_blank">http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/group/fish-less-systems/forum/topics/pee-ponics-flowering</a></p>
<p>I too believe that the wealth of scientific knowledge compliments such tinkerous endevours, (or at least it should)...with out that body of knowledge each of us would probably be stuck re-inventing the wheel every time we do anything. But, by the same token we should not allow ourselves to become enslaved to by certain conventions that that very same body of knowledge helped to spawn.</p>
<p>What do you buffer up you pH with, or how do you keep up the requisite inorganic carbon source (in the form of some type of carbonates) that bacterial respiration demands if all you ever add to your system is Fe? I'm not asking in the spirit of facetiosness, I'm honestly curious.</p>
<p></p> Wow, I was just browsing some…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-16:4778851:Comment:4297622013-01-16T02:48:19.135ZIzzyhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/aquaponics
<p>Wow, I was just browsing some seeds for a friend and I came across another solution to Mike's carrot problem. How about we use a different cultivar of carrot! This one "claims" to grow in gravel: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Carrot-Parisian-Seeds-Grows-Rocky/dp/B004O39D0C/" target="_blank">www.amazon.com/Carrot-Parisian-Seeds-Grows-Rocky/dp/B004O39D0C/</a></p>
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<p>If that doesn't show, try to google or ebay/amazon search for "<span id="btAsinTitle">Carrot Parisian…</span></p>
<p>Wow, I was just browsing some seeds for a friend and I came across another solution to Mike's carrot problem. How about we use a different cultivar of carrot! This one "claims" to grow in gravel: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Carrot-Parisian-Seeds-Grows-Rocky/dp/B004O39D0C/" target="_blank">www.amazon.com/Carrot-Parisian-Seeds-Grows-Rocky/dp/B004O39D0C/</a></p>
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<p>If that doesn't show, try to google or ebay/amazon search for "<span id="btAsinTitle">Carrot Parisian Seeds</span>".</p> Apology accepted! :-)
Well,…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-16:4778851:Comment:4295492013-01-16T02:18:29.020ZIzzyhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/aquaponics
<p>Apology accepted! :-)</p>
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<p>Well, I can't quite agree with strip mining the Earth to source inorganic compounds that we can source locally and sustainably (like from urine, awesome)! </p>
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<p>I'm not 100% positive, but I believe the Chinese did just that thousands of years ago. I even think they are practicing similar concepts even today in a very low-tech DIY style fashion we would all be proud of!</p>
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<p>I think I understand your perspective now. I do not see the…</p>
<p>Apology accepted! :-)</p>
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<p>Well, I can't quite agree with strip mining the Earth to source inorganic compounds that we can source locally and sustainably (like from urine, awesome)! </p>
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<p>I'm not 100% positive, but I believe the Chinese did just that thousands of years ago. I even think they are practicing similar concepts even today in a very low-tech DIY style fashion we would all be proud of!</p>
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<p>I think I understand your perspective now. I do not see the wealth of scientific knowledge to be in conflict with the spirit of innovation and research. On the contrary, I think science compliments such endeavors. I expect you will come to agree with me in time, but you will have to discover that on your own. I once felt the same way you do, as do most who seek knowledge.</p>
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<p>I did not mean to imply that was the ONLY solution (haha, a solution for the poor solution). I have simply given these suggestions hundreds of times before (maybe thousands, seriously). I automatically offer my advice in the context of backyard gardening and that most people are lazy gardeners (as I am, and proud of it). However, I am an avid tinkerer and experimenter. I am culturing a 10 gallon tank at higher temperatures with some urine and some selected microorganisms (aerated this time). I have no idea what will happen, but I'm monitoring it and regularly performing microscopy. It's probably a waste of time, but one such experiment yielded an effluent that was dark grey. I wonder if it's similar to the effluent you have discovered? It takes a while to decompose the urine and it's done with the assistance of what looks like a large fungal colony of TWO distinct species (one white, one black). I didn't microscopy or assy the solution because I was scared to touch it even with gloves! LOL :-)</p>
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<p>As far as the KCl, it will not kill Tilapia because tilapia have a chloride cell that acts as an osmotic pump for chloride ions in their blood serum (don't you just love the selective permeability of membranes :-). It will kill other species though. It's all relative. I'm guessing you have Tilapia as do most aquapons?</p>
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<p>I think we're a lot more alike than you first assumed! :-) Don't worry, I knew from the stoichiometry in your post we were kindred. There's a special place in my heart for biodegradation and bioremediation; so, I hope you share more about your pee sludge with us. Send some to Mike, maybe you can trick him into testing it! Oh crap, he can read this can't he? Sorry Mike! ;-)</p> Well, both types are usually…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-16:4778851:Comment:4297552013-01-16T01:49:56.098ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Well, both types are usually nice as recently I've found a host of things that "should not have been" according to accepted textbook literature (both temp and pH related). So yes, I like a good dose of firsthand anecdotal evidence to go with what the papers say.</p>
<p>These last six months or so, I've been reclaiming biological phosphates (from urine) in the form of MAP/Struvite crystals (<span>NH4MgPO4·6H2O)</span> . The effluent by-product left over from the process is very K rich and…</p>
<p>Well, both types are usually nice as recently I've found a host of things that "should not have been" according to accepted textbook literature (both temp and pH related). So yes, I like a good dose of firsthand anecdotal evidence to go with what the papers say.</p>
<p>These last six months or so, I've been reclaiming biological phosphates (from urine) in the form of MAP/Struvite crystals (<span>NH4MgPO4·6H2O)</span> . The effluent by-product left over from the process is very K rich and seems to be a resource unto itself...So I've been playing with it/testing it in some of these smaller systems. What I'm seeing is that adding this K rich effluent to some of these bio-ponic systems (since the NH4 source is either the MAP, or straight humonia...they are thin in the K department) will apparently alleviate the K situation even though NO3- is quite high (140 to 160 mg /L). Which is why I do not prescribe to your textbook suggestion of lowering N <em>as the only possible solution </em>in all such a situations. Adding such effluent to a system with fish would produce an ammonia spike, Hence the KCl and hand picked sea salt for TE's. I wouldn't use MaxiCrop on the basis of it's heavy metal content alone. (Also, I think that all those extra auxins and cytokinins were responsible for some pretty unruly-ness exhibited by my toms i.e fruit clusters not knowing when to terminate....</p>
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<p>Although I love AP, I certainly do not count it as a "sustainable" method of food production even when practiced in it's "purist" form. So I see nothing wrong with adding a compound(s) mined from the Earth, or picked off the rocks by the sea, or made from my own urine, or from the ashes of hardwood trees that I heat my home with etc...</p>
<p>Look it's almost 3:00am here, and I've got a long day ahead of me (teaching my fish that they are supposed to be dead ;) I take it the KCl additions for you client did not (as your quick fingertip search suggested) result in a massive fish kill?</p>
<p>We can slug it out some more tomorrow or whenever. It's way past my bedtime and my head already isn't working properly. (Though this <em>is</em> interesting, really... thanks). </p>
<p>Sorry about the "Google" wise crack, but you started it ;) (Sorta caught me at I bad time...I do apologize We should tone it down a bit and not freak the other guys out.</p>
<p></p> You require anectdotal eviden…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-16:4778851:Comment:4295432013-01-16T01:23:27.061ZIzzyhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/aquaponics
<p>You require anectdotal evidence instead of reproducible scientific evidence? Interesting. (just messing with ya) ;-)</p>
<p>And yes, I have grown several radishes and carrots. Every year I take a picture of my largest radish as tradition. So far, I have gotten round globe radish to a size larger than my foot and short white icle top radish to a size larger than a human head! I have not tried the large Daikon radish, but I intend to this year. I do not add any K to my system. The only…</p>
<p>You require anectdotal evidence instead of reproducible scientific evidence? Interesting. (just messing with ya) ;-)</p>
<p>And yes, I have grown several radishes and carrots. Every year I take a picture of my largest radish as tradition. So far, I have gotten round globe radish to a size larger than my foot and short white icle top radish to a size larger than a human head! I have not tried the large Daikon radish, but I intend to this year. I do not add any K to my system. The only thing I have ever added to MY PERSONAL system is iron. However, I have added KCl to large commercial systems I have consulted on. Production is very important for these kinds of systems; so, I compromise on the sustainability.</p>
<p>As a side note, I truly wish I did not have to add anything to my system, but if you have ever done thermokinetic calculations on iron interactions in soil solutions you will understand just how hard it is to maintain adequate iron levels in a recirculating system such as these.</p>
<p>P.S. I may have gotten the name wrong on the radish varieties. I save my seed for next season and I don't remember what it said on the package from when I bought them many years ago.<br/> <br/> <cite>Vlad Jovanovic said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/growing-root-vegtables-question?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A429542&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4778851Comment429542"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>No, seriously have you ever actually <em>tried</em> any of those things in any of your systems to see for <em>yourself</em> how they pan out?</p>
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</blockquote> I'm not really sure what he's…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-16:4778851:Comment:4296512013-01-16T01:22:58.983ZIzzyhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/aquaponics
<p>I'm not really sure what he's after. I presented a sound enough argument backed by simple scientific principles to no avail. Oh well, it's the Internet and it happens. I hope my curiosity about this guy doesn't backfire. I'm just waiting for him to calm down and respond intelligently. Maybe we BOTH can learn something, God willing. :-)<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Mike Roe said:…</cite></p>
<p>I'm not really sure what he's after. I presented a sound enough argument backed by simple scientific principles to no avail. Oh well, it's the Internet and it happens. I hope my curiosity about this guy doesn't backfire. I'm just waiting for him to calm down and respond intelligently. Maybe we BOTH can learn something, God willing. :-)<br/> <br/> <cite>Mike Roe said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/growing-root-vegtables-question?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A429542&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4778851Comment429754"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Good God why all this crap between two people, I do appreciate everyone's opionon but this is getting out of hand, </p>
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</blockquote> No, seriously have you ever a…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-16:4778851:Comment:4295422013-01-16T00:53:16.855ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>No, seriously have you ever actually <em>tried</em> any of those things in any of your systems to see for <em>yourself</em> how they pan out?</p>
<p>No, seriously have you ever actually <em>tried</em> any of those things in any of your systems to see for <em>yourself</em> how they pan out?</p> Good God why all this crap be…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-01-16:4778851:Comment:4297542013-01-16T00:52:31.388ZMike Roehttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/MikeRoe
<p>Good God why all this crap between two people, I do appreciate everyone's opionon but this is getting out of hand, </p>
<p>Good God why all this crap between two people, I do appreciate everyone's opionon but this is getting out of hand, </p>