Fish feces - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-28T18:32:36Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/fish-feces?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A13061&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noWhat wonderful and detailed i…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2010-09-28:4778851:Comment:148032010-09-28T12:49:12.000ZSahib Punjabihttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/SahibPunjabi
What wonderful and detailed information. Thank you sincerely for sharing :-)<br />
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<cite>Kobus Jooste said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/fish-feces?id=4778851%3ATopic%3A12849&page=2#4778851Comment14795"><div>The picture I described to you about my vision for my systems is a combination of design desires and actual achivements. I have been able to take my systems off the grid in terms of water (rain) to some success - we are in the middle of a huge drought,…</div>
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What wonderful and detailed information. Thank you sincerely for sharing :-)<br />
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<cite>Kobus Jooste said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/fish-feces?id=4778851%3ATopic%3A12849&page=2#4778851Comment14795"><div>The picture I described to you about my vision for my systems is a combination of design desires and actual achivements. I have been able to take my systems off the grid in terms of water (rain) to some success - we are in the middle of a huge drought, and in some instances I needed municipal water in my research system, but the micro system has not been affected. Our systems can run on rain in any area getting around 200 mm of rain in a year. In terms of alternative sources for my systems in terms of power, I have design options but have not bought anything because of budget issues. I have been at it for over two years without a steady income, thus some things have to wait a bit. This is what I will do:<br/> 1) water temp regulation: There is a company here locally that has developed a low tech solar water heater as a pre-heating geyser inflow. It retails for under the equivalent of $500, pump, thermometer included. Only problem is that it is tuned to deliver water as close to 70 degrees celcius as possible. I will get myself one ASAP, and tune it down so that the pump kicks in as soon as the water is 24 degrees Celcius.<br/>
2) power: I use 70 Watts in the Micro, and a max of 120 Watts in the research system. Our 300 meter square system being built will run on 1.1 kW. Both the small systems can therefore run on PV panels and batteries. A friend of mine is busy developing a wind charger that can feed directly into a power grid without problems. I'm interested in trying that too. On the big commercial plans we have, we are very ambitious. My partners in that venture is an engineering company responsible for making auto assembly lines. They are busy developing linear fresnel systems that could power a large commercial venture we have designed and proposed to Government. They are interested, but we have not been able to get them to sign on the dotted line.<br/>
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Fish: I'm heavily focussed on Mozambique tilapia. It grows larger than Nile, grows like weed at 24 degrees Celcius (75 F) and can survive 8 degrees Celcius (46 F) for a while. They are prolific breeders, thus getting your own stock going is simple. The stock needs to be improved a bit, as what is available now is not the prime genetics swimming in the wild, but I am working on that one and so are other people in the area.<br/>
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Fish food: I want to work on 40 - 50 % lemna and 50 - 60 % BSFL. Lemna is our local type of duckweed - I use Lemna gibba. It is very special for a number of reasons - first, it is part of what a tilapia would typically eat, grows well until you let water temps hit 30 degrees Celcius, and can concentrate macro and micro nutrients in its cells at far greater concentrations than what is in the water. It also does not take up sodium, and is not affected by low levels of it in the water. Thus, in my research system, I am working on a mix of Mozambique tilapia (which can take full sea water salinity, Lemna gibba and a water mix that is doctored to contain all the elements plant and fish need to be happy. Lemna will grow, and this will be fed to fish in other AP systems. The wastes should resemble the data I have on aquaculture sludge on which we grow our plants in AP. The water will be doctored with a natural substance that will keep the process Organic/sustainable/all natural.<br/>
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All that is left with to buy is the water treatments we normally get in - the pH control and buffering agents, and chelated iron if the Lemna does not suck up enough - yes, the plant can concentrate metals in its cells.<br/>
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Seeds can be produced by letting a small number of your plants flower, and then moving them outside of your system to allow them to be pollenated without compromizing bio-security. We cannot buy pollenators or bio-control insects in South Africa at all.<br/>
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Attached are some starter references. The first is an indication of what Lemna is capable of. The second gives you some idea of the macro nutrient dynamics in culture systems. The third one gives you a nice start on what, in terms of macro and micro nutrients, may end up in your system. As far as I can recall, animals do not need Molybdenum or Boron, thus those two you will not find in fish food. That is where the Lemna comes in. It is a vacuum cleaner of note - what is in the water will be in the plant.</div>
</blockquote> some one once told me that bl…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2010-09-27:4778851:Comment:147412010-09-27T23:55:04.000ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
some one once told me that blue gill can actually get quite aggressive to predator fish when in tank culture. Would definitely need some further research but I believe there have been aquaponic systems that had poly culture with catfish and blue gill. I haven't tried them yet though they are good eating.
some one once told me that blue gill can actually get quite aggressive to predator fish when in tank culture. Would definitely need some further research but I believe there have been aquaponic systems that had poly culture with catfish and blue gill. I haven't tried them yet though they are good eating. Cool. We have fresh lake-caug…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2010-09-27:4778851:Comment:147342010-09-27T23:37:00.000ZGeorge Thttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/GeorgeJThurmon
Cool. We have fresh lake-caught blue gill on hand now and have been enjoying them at every meal for a couple of days. I've leaning heavily toward a catfish/blue gill combo for our system. If I'm able to hatch bluegill that will work as food for the catfish too.<br />
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<cite>TCLynx said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/fish-feces?id=4778851%3ATopic%3A12849&page=2#4778851Comment14719"><div>I'm not sure about ease of breeding but one person I know said his…</div>
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Cool. We have fresh lake-caught blue gill on hand now and have been enjoying them at every meal for a couple of days. I've leaning heavily toward a catfish/blue gill combo for our system. If I'm able to hatch bluegill that will work as food for the catfish too.<br />
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<cite>TCLynx said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/fish-feces?id=4778851%3ATopic%3A12849&page=2#4778851Comment14719"><div>I'm not sure about ease of breeding but one person I know said his blue gill did breed in his swimming pool system.</div>
</blockquote> Kobus, your comments have bee…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2010-09-27:4778851:Comment:147222010-09-27T23:13:16.000ZSylvia Bernsteinhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/SylviaBernstein
Kobus, your comments have been incredibly enlightening, and improved fish feed is a critical path to widespread aquaponics. You are clearly someone who is/will have a big impact on aquaponics. How are you doing solar/wind? With a battery running at night? What is a "Lemna"? Have you found that Molybdenum and Boron aren't present in fish poo? And finally, yes, if you can find those PDFs I would be eternally grateful. Thanks!<br />
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<cite>Kobus Jooste said:…</cite>
Kobus, your comments have been incredibly enlightening, and improved fish feed is a critical path to widespread aquaponics. You are clearly someone who is/will have a big impact on aquaponics. How are you doing solar/wind? With a battery running at night? What is a "Lemna"? Have you found that Molybdenum and Boron aren't present in fish poo? And finally, yes, if you can find those PDFs I would be eternally grateful. Thanks!<br />
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<cite>Kobus Jooste said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/fish-feces?xg_source=msg_com_forum&id=4778851%3ATopic%3A12849&page=1#4778851Comment14662"><div>Eish! Seems like I have to clarify my stance a bit.<br/>
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The ecosystems we create contains the following:<br/>
1) recycling pathways - VERY important. All the microbes in our system.<br/>
2) Primary producers - the plants. The problem is that typically, the consumers of this system is not "resident" but migratory - US.<br/>
3) consumers - the fish, and us. We are part of the system (but don't feel obliged to go live in the tank)<br/>
4) population dynamics - we sow seeds, transplant them, introduce fingerlings, grow them out, eat them, stick in new fingerlings. We can also breed our own stock. This is a modification of mortality and natality. We ensure that nothing important dies out in this system. If we do not go and buy them elsewhere, the loop remains closed.<br/>
5) Imports - the buffers, micro nutrients and fish food we add<br/>
6) Exports - everything we remove.<br/>
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I was not referring to some form of biopod when I was talking about a closed loop, but the following scenario that, as far as I am concerned, provides a closed loop in production philosophy. See yourself as predation or consumption, because that is what you are. Mr bear or fish eagle does not fillet his fish and dump the wastes back into the river. It is a predation export, which we then balance out with the import of a fingerling in its place. Now, if you were responsible for the production of said fingerling, you are still operating in a closed loop. If you take the wastes from your system, and produce BSFL for your system, then you are still keeping the loop closed. If your greenhouse has gutters, and all the water you use drops from the sky, then the loop is still closed - no municipal input. If you grow duckweed as part of your system, and use it as food for the fish, the loop is still closed.<br/>
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Thus, to get back to what I said before, my closed system:<br/>
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I have a greenhouse with gutters that catches water. The water keeps my tank levels right. Solar and winds supplies the power. I harvest some seeds from production, and use them the next year (if possible). I grow my own fish, and produce their food (if possible) from components of the system. What you take, you take as the apex predator. I do not use clarifiers, and I do not pull solids from the system. I do not clean my gravel - the bits that stays behind after I pull the plant out breaks down again. In other words. If you have no municipal services, and do not buy anything from a store, can you keep your system functioning. THAT is the question I am working towards.</div>
</blockquote> I'm not sure about ease of br…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2010-09-27:4778851:Comment:147192010-09-27T22:55:51.000ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
I'm not sure about ease of breeding but one person I know said his blue gill did breed in his swimming pool system.
I'm not sure about ease of breeding but one person I know said his blue gill did breed in his swimming pool system. We can also breed our own sto…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2010-09-27:4778851:Comment:147182010-09-27T22:53:37.000ZGeorge Thttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/GeorgeJThurmon
<i><b>We can also breed our own stock.</b></i><br />
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Can you recommend species for ease of breeding, other than tilapia?
<i><b>We can also breed our own stock.</b></i><br />
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Can you recommend species for ease of breeding, other than tilapia? And a admirable Goal to work…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2010-09-27:4778851:Comment:146682010-09-27T16:50:52.000ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
And a admirable Goal to work towards too.<br />
Defining what you mean by "closed" and sharing that info I think is really helpful too. Gives more of the framework for meeting the goals.<br />
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Thank you Kobus
And a admirable Goal to work towards too.<br />
Defining what you mean by "closed" and sharing that info I think is really helpful too. Gives more of the framework for meeting the goals.<br />
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Thank you Kobus Hay guys, I just want to make…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2010-09-27:4778851:Comment:146492010-09-27T12:30:54.000ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
Hay guys, I just want to make note of something here, Saying "closed loop" when talking about any system where you actually harvest and sell something from it is really not a "closed loop". If you add feed, it is not closed and if you remove anything from the system (plants/fish) it isn't closed loop. Lets face it, a closed loop system is only productive for those creatures living inside the loop.<br />
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However, I do understand what you are getting at though. For instance, not removing solids is…
Hay guys, I just want to make note of something here, Saying "closed loop" when talking about any system where you actually harvest and sell something from it is really not a "closed loop". If you add feed, it is not closed and if you remove anything from the system (plants/fish) it isn't closed loop. Lets face it, a closed loop system is only productive for those creatures living inside the loop.<br />
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However, I do understand what you are getting at though. For instance, not removing solids is essentially patching the leak that would otherwise be draining away nutrients. And if you are happy to go a bit slower click on the fish (either not as many or not as fast a grow out) you can actually get much more efficient on the plant growth.<br />
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I expect it would be possible to greatly reduce the purchased ingredients for fish food by utilizing "wastes" as feed stocks for BSF larva and the sludge from BSF larva bins definitely could use some further processing by worms which can also be feed for fish as well as the castings making very good seed starting medium and by recycling that back into the system the complex compounds available from the worm castings are great for plants. Add to it the duck weed and perhaps some other bug catching feed for the fish and the loop becomes far less OPEN as long as the people eating food from the system return their scraps back to the BSF and worm bins.<br />
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Now here is a component that hasn't gotten much talk that I've seen. Natural live feed for the fish. When raising larval fish I know it's common for people to hatch brine shrimp or work up a bloom of zoo plankton and stuff like that but I haven't seen much talk of carrying this further (other than green water culture for tilapia) except a few comments of growing guppies as live feed for really carnivorous fish. So, for example, catfish are called omnivores (not quite sure why because I've never seen mine eat a plant, I have seen them grab plant matter in their mouths but they are probably just checking it out and spit it out) perhaps because they seem to do well on even lower protein feed than the tilapia. Anyway, their natural food in the wild is largely small crustations and small invertebrates along with insects and perhaps small slow fish/frogs etc when they get a chance. So what I'm wondering is, what detritus eating crustations could we add to our systems to provide feed for our fish? 2) removing any waste from th…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2010-09-27:4778851:Comment:146482010-09-27T11:35:13.000ZGeorge Thttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/GeorgeJThurmon
<i>2) <b>removing any waste from the system should not be considered. Systems should be geared towards being a perfect loop of fish and plants. Why toss food into the system and then toss the solids out again?</b></i><br />
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So if we harvest fish, fillet them and eat the fillets, most of the fish (approximately 65%, depending on species) is unconsumed by us and could be returned to the system but how could we do it? Some biopod users feed fish/fish carcasses to black soldier fly larvae. The larvae…
<i>2) <b>removing any waste from the system should not be considered. Systems should be geared towards being a perfect loop of fish and plants. Why toss food into the system and then toss the solids out again?</b></i><br />
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So if we harvest fish, fillet them and eat the fillets, most of the fish (approximately 65%, depending on species) is unconsumed by us and could be returned to the system but how could we do it? Some biopod users feed fish/fish carcasses to black soldier fly larvae. The larvae eat most of the fish but not scales and bone. The larvae could then be fed to the fish. The fish and bones (or entire carcasses) could be composted and perhaps the compost could be used to grow some type of fish food in a dirt garden. What could be grown that would then be fed to fish and how? Possibly something could be grown, mixed with dried carcasses (or not) and then fed back to the fish in pellet form. Likewise vegetable waste from the system could either be fed to BSFL or composted. That is an interesting idea, closing the loop to retain nutrients. Kobus, if you run across one…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2010-09-26:4778851:Comment:145622010-09-26T17:18:32.000ZSylvia Bernsteinhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/SylviaBernstein
Kobus, if you run across one of those papers that analyzes the sludge from tilapia in RAS again would you shoot the link to me? Are you saying "sans Molybdenum and Boron" because they aren't present? These are in the 16 elements required by plants, as you obviously seem to already know, but they are only required in trace amounts and I've never heard talk of these being a problem in aquaponics. Also, are you saying that solids are excreted in some way other than what you would normally think? I…
Kobus, if you run across one of those papers that analyzes the sludge from tilapia in RAS again would you shoot the link to me? Are you saying "sans Molybdenum and Boron" because they aren't present? These are in the 16 elements required by plants, as you obviously seem to already know, but they are only required in trace amounts and I've never heard talk of these being a problem in aquaponics. Also, are you saying that solids are excreted in some way other than what you would normally think? I thought ammonia was through the gills and solids through the anus, so I'd be very interested in hearing more. Thanks!<br />
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<cite>Kobus Jooste said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/fish-feces?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A14555&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4778851Comment14555"><div>In my research I have come across a number of papers related to the chemical constituants of alquaculture sludge. These mostly entailed studies of tilapia RAS systems, and if you want to be more specific, only remains applicable if you use the same fish food. In general what it did show was that all basic growth elements required by plants, sans Molybdenum and Boron were present in the sludge, and that most of the elements were in a range suitable for plants, some a bit on the low side, some a bit on the high side. People also often forget that with fish, there are excretory pathways - solids and dissolved materials excreted through permeable membranes directly into the water. You therefore have to balance both sources of nutrients when looking at the usefulness of aquaponic solution for plants.</div>
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