ethics vs. profitability - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-29T15:20:46Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/ethics-vs-profitability?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A251139&feed=yes&xn_auth=noDamon Polta
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send him to me…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-12-07:4778851:Comment:2628012011-12-07T19:03:49.612ZDave R. Masonhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/DaveRMason
<p><a class="fn url" href="../topic/listForContributor?user=291xrx3qccs4m">Damon Polta</a></p>
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<p>send him to me...</p>
<p>I will straighten him out...</p>
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<p>Our shelter(s) have aquaponics already installed and running. We don't have an "issue" with having to "remember" to move the fish (like that would work anyways... not likely).</p>
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<p>Granted "Our" aquaponics is only 16,000 sq feet, and that includes upper and lower levels (we have two levels - Plants…</p>
<p><a href="../topic/listForContributor?user=291xrx3qccs4m" class="fn url">Damon Polta</a></p>
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<p>send him to me...</p>
<p>I will straighten him out...</p>
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<p>Our shelter(s) have aquaponics already installed and running. We don't have an "issue" with having to "remember" to move the fish (like that would work anyways... not likely).</p>
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<p>Granted "Our" aquaponics is only 16,000 sq feet, and that includes upper and lower levels (we have two levels - Plants upper, fish lower, with two in ground - funny to put it that way, it is actually in the floor of the lower level) catch basins to catch the "fish poo".</p>
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<p>Bomb shelter is such a misleading term nowadays. Survival shelter would be a more accurate description. But since all the "anti Nuke" activists are pushing us closer and closer to the next World War (and armagedon) it may very well fit the bill.</p>
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<p>We went over 40 years of non nuclear war because of the MADD System (Mutual Assured Desolation and Destruction) because a nuclear exchange was not feasible or survivable. Since all three super powers had enough weapons to retaliate and over kill was the retaliation - it wasn't a viable warfare or diplomatic option. Now through the efforts of all the anti-nuke lobby's and organizations the world's arsenals are being down sized. Unfortunately for the human race - Nuclear war is becoming more feasible as a "first strike" weapon - so it is therefore inevitable that the one to strike first will at least win, and possibly be able to live in a small portion of the planet that is left habitable.</p>
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<p>Since more radical splinter groups are obtaining nuclear technology (mostly through the Efforts of the French Governments efforts) the chance of nuclear armagedon looms on the horizon. Yes - I am sure (in fact I'm Positive.. absolutely positive).</p>
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<p>But bomb shelter of the old erra are not the same as bomb shelters of this century. Requirements have radically changed. With the proliferation of "Bunker Busters" )missiles that are designed to burrow until they hit had material like a bunker and then set of a secondary charge to breach the bunker, and a primary charge ti incinerate the contents) make most under ground designs obsolete. then there are the fuel Air Bombs we used in the gulf War. These bombs are dropped out of a cargo aircraft at extreme altitude. Their descent is controlled (actually guided) to about 40,000 feet above the target area. The bomb separates immediately after deployment. The first half is a fuel tank that free falls, the second half is the incidiary that has a slower descent (it uses two para sails to slow it down). When the secondary reaches a distance of 20,000 to 40,000 feet (depending upon the "total" target area) it blows atomizing the fuel into a heavier than air fuel air mixture. This vapor reaches up to 160 feet below ground and even gets into every knoock and cranny. The primary charge ignites 18-45 seconds later and ignites the vapor spread over and saturating the area. the result is utter and total incineration of everything and everyone combustible. Three of these were dropped in the gulf war - the Republican guard surrendered (just like the Japanese in World war II) in mass shortly there after.</p>
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<p>So in todays military arsenal we have far worse things that "Nuclear Bombs" and they don't have the lasting effects of a nuclear exchange. But several third world contry's attempting to obtain nuclear weapons could care less about habitation after the fact - they only care about utter destruction...</p>
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<p>Bomb Shelter design is a lot more about reactive shielding (providing that hard shell and soft area, then a dead zone to absorb and contain the blast) and blending into the surrounding's to simulate a worthless target. Out of sight and out of mind is more of a reality. Communications should be dispersed away from the facility utilizing fiber optics and relay sites should blend with the mountain ridges. In fact communications should be a "on when used - off when not", communications links should be multiple path with "active monitoring" and the use of spread spectrum technology to activate and inactivate multiple links on a random algorithm should be employed to minimize the chances of unwanted detection.</p>
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<p>The use of in-ground fiber optic links between shelters and community's should be maximized. RF communications should be kept to a minimum and only used sparingly.</p>
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<p>Fiber optic isn't that expensive, really... There are DS3 Fiber Loop Converters on the surplus market (they have a range of up to 160,000 feet of fiber cable length between boxes) and can be had for as little as $300.00 each (Most go in the range of $1,500 - but then sometimes you get lucky). Using Computers in EMI Shielded Server Rooms with power isolation to minimize EMP you could have a survivable Server (Just like they Have in Langley, Virginia - you know the "second" National Weather Service. Why else would you think they needed all those Satellite Terminals like Womera, Australia, Diyabakir, Turkey, Permisans, Germany, etc...). Heck I used to be a weather tech at al three location, plus a couple of others that aren't public knowledge).</p>
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<p>HF Nets are nice, Spread Spectrum Microwave links are the Cats Meow (especially if you have the ability to multi pth and multi-link to allow for Spread Spectrum applications). But a point to point Fiber Optic link? Ohhhhhh My Mouth is watering ant the thought. Totally orgasmic feeling... Communications reliability and survivability.</p>
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<p>Forgot to mention.... Fiber optic needs to be buried "below" the Telecommunications Standard of 9 Feet (put it down at 30 feet and no one will find it)...</p>
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<p>As for our Fish, We pull a gate and they all slide downstairs into the "shelter tanks" - which are already used as catch basins, so there is little or no adjustment to their environment.</p>
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<p>but as for TSHTF....</p>
<p>I say again, We are closer to Nuclear Armagedon than ever before......</p>
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<p>Dave</p>
<p>Phoenix, AZ</p> lol i tried looking for it, b…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-12-07:4778851:Comment:2627062011-12-07T18:02:38.103ZDamon Poltahttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/DamonPolta
<p>lol i tried looking for it, but didnt see it. sorry sylvia.</p>
<p>lol i tried looking for it, but didnt see it. sorry sylvia.</p> Damon, I believe you posted t…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-12-07:4778851:Comment:2624602011-12-07T16:30:16.147ZSylvia Bernsteinhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/SylviaBernstein
<p>Damon, I believe you posted this exact same situation (e.g. "pearl") on Nov 21...</p>
<p>Damon, I believe you posted this exact same situation (e.g. "pearl") on Nov 21...</p> I think Damon's dilemma is th…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-12-07:4778851:Comment:2623792011-12-07T14:29:28.184ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>I think Damon's dilemma is that the guy who was gonna pay him to build it was not the "end user" and seemed to have no intention of forwarding the information about how to successfully start up and run the system to the "end users".</p>
<p>I think Damon's dilemma is that the guy who was gonna pay him to build it was not the "end user" and seemed to have no intention of forwarding the information about how to successfully start up and run the system to the "end users".</p> It is only a moral issue if y…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-12-07:4778851:Comment:2625342011-12-07T14:07:51.139ZRick Stillwagonhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RickStillwagon
<p>It is only a moral issue if you dont tell him what it takes to get it running and up to maturity. If you explain this, and he still wants it and is willing to take the risk of not having the time to accomodate the lag, then it is on him. Where I live, we have a large community of survivalists, end of the worlders, or what ever you want to call them. The hills around the town are full of bunkers stocked for the apocolypse. They have bought, and built, every bizzarre gimmick to survive the…</p>
<p>It is only a moral issue if you dont tell him what it takes to get it running and up to maturity. If you explain this, and he still wants it and is willing to take the risk of not having the time to accomodate the lag, then it is on him. Where I live, we have a large community of survivalists, end of the worlders, or what ever you want to call them. The hills around the town are full of bunkers stocked for the apocolypse. They have bought, and built, every bizzarre gimmick to survive the attack of the lizard people that live in the mountain nearby (One of their beliefs, not mine. LOL) It helps them to take their focus off their fears and to believe they are prepared for their worst nightmares come true. So, if you build them a truly workable system if it were to be successfully started, then you have committed no injustice. The only dent may be in your ego for not having it actually run.</p> im not sure if i put this one…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-12-07:4778851:Comment:2623562011-12-07T05:07:34.458ZDamon Poltahttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/DamonPolta
<p>im not sure if i put this one pearl up here yet or not, but i got another one.</p>
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<p>a week or so ago i was approached by a guy to build a large scale system designed to be built in a bomb shelter. well i asked him my standard questions about the different variables that concern the systems such as water supply, ambient air temp, and maintenance, and things of that nature... all the answers were acceptable except one...</p>
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<p>the answer that bothered me was the fact that he…</p>
<p>im not sure if i put this one pearl up here yet or not, but i got another one.</p>
<p></p>
<p>a week or so ago i was approached by a guy to build a large scale system designed to be built in a bomb shelter. well i asked him my standard questions about the different variables that concern the systems such as water supply, ambient air temp, and maintenance, and things of that nature... all the answers were acceptable except one...</p>
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<p>the answer that bothered me was the fact that he was not going to set any plans for running the system... he also said that the system wouldnt be turned on... it would just be built and when the time came they would turn on the system and hopefully it would work... i know this all sounds like it can be just be tested and shut off and left for a rainy day... but you're missing one big aspect... the fish...</p>
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<p>something tells me that when the day comes that the bombs drop and every one is running to this shelter, the last thing on anyones mind is going to to be, 'hey, we need to grab 4000lbs of fish before we get down there." so how can someone in good conscience build a system, knowing full well that when the times comes for people to survive on this system, not only would it take a good 2 months to start producing food in the first place, but knowing that without the live fish the produce the nutrients to the system, the whole system isn't even worth the lumber that it's made out of?</p>
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<p>i know i could do this thing and just write it in my contract that im not accountable for the running of the system just the building of it... but the last thing i want on my conscience is knowing that when the time comes, and people are going to be looking to something that i designed to save their lives, and it fails, and they all die... that's just too much... i mean yes, the money would have been great because it was a solid offer, but really? it all boils down to accountability... fiscal, and moral. </p> Very Well stated there. MOST…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-11-24:4778851:Comment:2547012011-11-24T00:00:59.783ZTCLynxhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/TCLynx
<p>Very Well stated there. MOST of the Aquaponics classes have been mostly on Aquaponics and very little on business. But as you said, a business that works well in once place might not translate. There have been a rash of people online asking for business plans. And I've had people who know nothing about aquaponics contact me like I can give them all the info needed for them to start up a huge commercial operation with just a short chat on the phone and the info that they have a few acres…</p>
<p>Very Well stated there. MOST of the Aquaponics classes have been mostly on Aquaponics and very little on business. But as you said, a business that works well in once place might not translate. There have been a rash of people online asking for business plans. And I've had people who know nothing about aquaponics contact me like I can give them all the info needed for them to start up a huge commercial operation with just a short chat on the phone and the info that they have a few acres somewhere and like the idea of aquaponics.<br/> <br/>
<cite>Damon Polta said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/ethics-vs-profitability?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A254602&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4778851Comment254610"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><br/><p>most of what i've seen from the classes i've either attended or got note from have only centered around the construction and upkeep of the system... this alone can cost a few thousand dollars... and then when these people go to put their knowledge from paper into the the real world, they are sorely disappointed by the lack of knowledge gained about market saturation, over head, and proper business management... instead of calling these things "commercial aquaponics courses" the name should really be changed to "how to build and run a large system and the rest is up to you." this would at least clear the air as to what kind of class you're actually taking.</p>
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</blockquote> sylvia, i did see that they m…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-11-23:4778851:Comment:2546102011-11-23T20:54:10.947ZDamon Poltahttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/DamonPolta
<p>sylvia, i did see that they made pizza and honorary vegetable of the food pyramid. as part of a joke online it said that it made the cut because of the basis of the tomato sauce providing the accepted daily value of vegetables... but tomatoes were deemed fruits not too long ago, so whouldn't that make pizza part of the fruits section of the pyramid? lol. it was a fun little play on words that made me laugh just a bit... honestly what does that say about american these days? has our standards…</p>
<p>sylvia, i did see that they made pizza and honorary vegetable of the food pyramid. as part of a joke online it said that it made the cut because of the basis of the tomato sauce providing the accepted daily value of vegetables... but tomatoes were deemed fruits not too long ago, so whouldn't that make pizza part of the fruits section of the pyramid? lol. it was a fun little play on words that made me laugh just a bit... honestly what does that say about american these days? has our standards of consumption slipped so low that we're now adding junk foods in our dietary plans?</p>
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<p>as far as the "johnny-come-lately" comment, i hope that wasn't in reference to me. if it wasn't for new comers to science we'd still be believing that the earth was the center of the universe... sometimes stirring the pot brings things up from the bottom that are going either unnoticed and/or unheeded...</p>
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<p>as always committees should always allow room for the growth of the science based on solid data.</p>
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<p>the use of loose regulations as to what's acceptable and what's not being started at an early age of aquaponics would make it much easier to control things instead of letting this bloom into an uncountable number of off branches and let the water get so murky as to cloud and dividing lines before any sort of standardization can be started... </p>
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<p>the exchange of information for monitory gain account for a large portion of a facilities income, but that that information actually means and what that information is being translated into are quickly heading in opposite directions with no controls being set on their correlation. just because an aquaponics system can be commercially viable in the Philippines does that mean that the owners of that farm have the right to sell their business plans looking to start these up in the united states without warning them of the differences in not only location but economical standards? i know this may come off as common sense, but most times people are blinded by numbers. like most people are saying, teaching someone how to build and maintain a system can be rather easy once you work out the finer details, but fitting that system into an area of an economic standpoint as far as marketable products is an entirely different story... after all, how many aquaponically powered lettuce farms does an area need? these issues should also be brought up in an ethical commercial aquaponics class... yes these systems are capable of producing large amounts of produce quickly, but if you aren't coached on which products to grow, you'll end up with a very large amount of unnecessary product... it's nice to sell the dream of a lettuce farm, but again i ask, how many of them can one area handle and still be economically viable?</p>
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<p>most of what i've seen from the classes i've either attended or got note from have only centered around the construction and upkeep of the system... this alone can cost a few thousand dollars... and then when these people go to put their knowledge from paper into the the real world, they are sorely disappointed by the lack of knowledge gained about market saturation, over head, and proper business management... instead of calling these things "commercial aquaponics courses" the name should really be changed to "how to build and run a large system and the rest is up to you." this would at least clear the air as to what kind of class you're actually taking.</p> The value i see is the promot…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-11-23:4778851:Comment:2542582011-11-23T20:01:57.415ZJonathan Kadish NYC AA Chairhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/JonathanKadish
<p>The value i see is the promotion of the way of growing and all the benefits to mankind that it can produce. Simply put, the AA should nurture those who are new to the technology, provide information and fight for the rights of growers when the government seeks to restrict them by educating politicians and policy makers. I'm sure there are a few other common sense things, but lets not over reach.</p>
<p><br></br><br></br> <cite>RupertofOZ said:…</cite></p>
<p>The value i see is the promotion of the way of growing and all the benefits to mankind that it can produce. Simply put, the AA should nurture those who are new to the technology, provide information and fight for the rights of growers when the government seeks to restrict them by educating politicians and policy makers. I'm sure there are a few other common sense things, but lets not over reach.</p>
<p><br/><br/> <cite>RupertofOZ said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/ethics-vs-profitability?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A254608&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4778851Comment254608"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>What value do you see then in an association at all Jonathan...</p>
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</blockquote> Growth is a dynamic process..…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2011-11-23:4778851:Comment:2543542011-11-23T19:49:25.415ZDave R. Masonhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/DaveRMason
<p>Growth is a dynamic process....</p>
<p>Teaching however can be dynamic and can also be passive....</p>
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<p>The reason Higher institutions take so long to achieve a degree is more of a business in this world economy..</p>
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<p>* Colleges and Universities make money to pay high salary's to the staff by charging tuition. Their course outlines and sylabus is designed to stretch out the process. By paying X amount of dollars and doing a defined routine the student earns…</p>
<p>Growth is a dynamic process....</p>
<p>Teaching however can be dynamic and can also be passive....</p>
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<p>The reason Higher institutions take so long to achieve a degree is more of a business in this world economy..</p>
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<p>* Colleges and Universities make money to pay high salary's to the staff by charging tuition. Their course outlines and sylabus is designed to stretch out the process. By paying X amount of dollars and doing a defined routine the student earns (loose word) a degree....</p>
<p>- - To put it in the way a college professor put it to me: If you want an understudy/research group you really want post graduates. Undergraduates can do the job and get the project/research done. But Undergraduates are slow and will take a lot more time.</p>
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<p>We were discussing our Bio Fuels Scholarship Programs and how they would integrate to our Research & Development goals. He (The ASU Professor) was relating to how our scholarship program could be expanded to maximize the University Involvement (a fancy way of saying maximize income to the University).</p>
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<p>Then you have the delimma of "Degree mills: The so called fast track training programs that offer training/certifications for XX Dollars and only 18-months training. They do so by stripping down the curriculum, they eliminate the humanities and academic over load and just teach the core. But does a core training program offer so much more? Is it not the purpose in training to cover "all aspects" and to provide well rounded individuals? In the past 20-years Deploma mills have proliferated to the point that creativity is dying off.... Sure you can teach a person to drive in four steps 1) Learn to start, turn off car. 2) Learn to Start and stop (or go and stop - depends upon how you want to put it). 3) Learn to go forward and back up. 4) Learn to turn right and to turn left. ::::: But are you teaching a person to drive correctly and safe, or just the basics and leaving them to fend for themselves? Is it ethical to call it driver's training? Or do you actually have the student apply and hone the skills to do it right?</p>
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<p>Teaching is and always should be a dynamic process when getting paid or relied upon to impart knowledge unto others. If you want to passively teach - write a text book, or just write a book....</p>
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<p>Industry Associations definitely have their place. But there is a delimma that strikes with a double edge sword here too....</p>
<p>Take the National BioDiesel Board (NBB): It started out as a nont for profit. In fact it was promoted to further the development of BioDiesel as a motor fuel. They received government funds in the form "public" grants and funding to get all the research done for the greater good. So now BioDiesel has the required EPA Certifications to be produced and sold as a motor fuel. Woopie!!!!! But the NBB is now chaired and run by a "professional Board" and as such assesses a $0.50 per gallon production tax to all certified BioDiesel produced and sold by members. The defacto tax is a revenue ploy. To give it teeth they have incorporated the restriction on Bio Diesel EPA Acceptance to require that all "Acceptable" BioDiesel be NBB Certified to be EPA Compliant. To be certified, the member only pay dues, and do production reporting and pay the $0.50 per gallon NBB fees.</p>
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<p>The NBB is now a Professional Certification and Standards Board. Their Board of Directors is paid a salary in line with what a Wall Street Executive is paid. So this is good for the BioDiesel Industry. Growth is good, and all those backyard BioDiesel Producers need to accept the fact that they are taking BioDiesel main stream and moving into large scale production (Kinda like the Auto Industry - started in Henry Ford's Garage, now is spread all over the globe).</p>
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<p>The Aquaponics Association will also need to grow. In today's economy no one really makes enough money (how can you make enough money? You spend what you make, so if you make more you can spend more.). There should be a managing board and committees. The committees should be mainly associate members. The majority of the managing board should also be elected associate members with the added bonus of financial compensation to pay for the member's expenses. This scenario gives the balance needed for association growth and structure. Just getting a group of people together in someone's garage every saturday is a club. An association is supposed to set standards, standards of conduct, standards of operation, standards of acceptable practice, standards of acceptable end products, standards of marketing, standards of , well - standards. There are state programs to certify contractors (Arizona is a prime example here). </p>
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<p>In Arizona you need only pay an annual fee to the state Contractor's board. Take a few exams (for another fee) and obtain an insurance policy underwritten by the State Contractors Board. This qualifies you to be a contractor. As such you can make bids of say $100,000 for jobs and actually charge $200,000 in the end. You can underbid and over charge, you can employ under qualified people (as long as you are a qualified contractor).</p>
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<p>So is this good? Certification Programs can and may not be viable - it is how they are managed and over seen. Even the Lawyers associations (particularly the Bar Association) lacks a lot of teeth. Sure, most states have passed laws making it a criminal offense to give legal advice for hire - but then fail to qualify, or over qualify the term "for hire".</p>
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<p>In it's early stage any new born Association has its growing pains. And everyone has their own idea of how life should be lived and enjoyed. Aquaponics is over 30-years old (and I believe it can be traced back over 200 years in actuality). But these are modern times and we have modern concerns. A dymanic Aquaponics Association can do wonders in promoting and motivating industry growth. The problem (and key to success) is - what happens to the BackYard Aquaponics enthusiast? Do they just fade into the wood work, or do they ramp up, pay up and become full scale commercial operations (it's for the good of all - right?)?</p>
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<p>I offer all these points to motivate you to look at the "whole" picture. We can all sit and ponder the universe to no end. That's what we pay theoretical physicists to do. The rest of us get jobs....</p>
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<p>If I have stepped on a few toes.... oh well - Sorry. Not my intention to discourage or point fingers. My point is to make everyone realize and see that there are multiple sides and some very complex social issues as well...</p>
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<p>Another silly quote from the past: ** Laws are not written, nor are they passed to eliminate socially unacceptable behavior. Laws are written to "define" Illegal behavior/activity. Laws do not eliminate illegal activity, they define it. Therefore laws are passed and more often than not encourage the very behavior/activity that they were originally intended to discourage. *** So if you are going to define the rules - get ready for activity that uses those very rules to what ever end......</p>
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<p>Yea, we are all humans, and we often screw up. But the beauty of it all is we can usually make it right too...</p>
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<p>Dave</p>
<p>Phoenix, AZ</p>