Designing a small AP system - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-29T05:38:33Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/designing-a-small-ap-system?id=4778851%3ATopic%3A417477&feed=yes&xn_auth=noDavid,
Red Worms or Wriggles…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-11-28:4778851:Comment:4192882012-11-28T21:27:03.240ZJohn Cubithttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/JohnCubit
<p>David,</p>
<p>Red Worms or Wriggles are self-controlling to their environment. They reproduce ever 30 days provided they have the food source. If the population is higher than the food available they will not reproduce. They are very prolific so that even if you add 500 to a 10 gallon bed, they will not out grow their confinement. I have had no escapee's and they will eat any other worms that have died. As I said I add about a 1lb to my 10 gallon grow bed that was about 300-500 small…</p>
<p>David,</p>
<p>Red Worms or Wriggles are self-controlling to their environment. They reproduce ever 30 days provided they have the food source. If the population is higher than the food available they will not reproduce. They are very prolific so that even if you add 500 to a 10 gallon bed, they will not out grow their confinement. I have had no escapee's and they will eat any other worms that have died. As I said I add about a 1lb to my 10 gallon grow bed that was about 300-500 small red worms, they have been growing and can be seen through out the bed.</p>
<p>My worm bed started with 300 and is well over flowing and can devour a weeks worth of coffee grounds and egg shell in a day or two. Still trying to make a good compost tea but I have plenty of compost for starter pots for seedlings before moving to the grow bed.</p> Well, this has been interesti…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-11-28:4778851:Comment:4193342012-11-28T21:10:39.738ZDavid Palmerhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/DavidPalmer
<p>Well, this has been interesting reading. He really pushed home the point that the grow bed size is governed by its ability to mineralization solid waste. He provide spreadsheets to help size the media bed. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.aquaponic.com.au/backyard.htm" target="_blank">http://www.aquaponic.com.au/backyard.htm</a></p>
<p>For a small aquarium system though, the grow bed size is much larger than the aquarium volume.</p>
<p>It does not seem reasonable to expect the small grow beds…</p>
<p>Well, this has been interesting reading. He really pushed home the point that the grow bed size is governed by its ability to mineralization solid waste. He provide spreadsheets to help size the media bed. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.aquaponic.com.au/backyard.htm" target="_blank">http://www.aquaponic.com.au/backyard.htm</a></p>
<p>For a small aquarium system though, the grow bed size is much larger than the aquarium volume.</p>
<p>It does not seem reasonable to expect the small grow beds to handle solid wastes without eventually going into an anaerobic process. This unfortunately would produce toxins for the fish unless the grow beds are cleaned. The basic solution then is to not allow solids to accumulate. </p>
<p>However, he has no go information to judge how much worms might help.</p>
<p>Dave<br/> <br/> <cite>Japan Aquaponics - アクアポニックス 日本 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/designing-a-small-ap-system?xg_source=activity&id=4778851%3ATopic%3A417477&page=3#4778851Comment419306"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Dr Wilson completed his PhD on aquaponics so he knows his stuff!</p>
<p></p>
<p>I have also updated the Little Black System on the website (thank you for your reminder) so you can see what it looks like now if you want!</p>
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</blockquote> Dr Wilson completed his PhD o…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-11-28:4778851:Comment:4193062012-11-28T03:41:27.426ZJapan Aquaponics - アクアポニックス 日本https://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/JapanAquaponics
<p>Dr Wilson completed his PhD on aquaponics so he knows his stuff!</p>
<p></p>
<p>I have also updated the Little Black System on the website (thank you for your reminder) so you can see what it looks like now if you want!</p>
<p></p>
<p>BTW... generally, if you put up photos of your systems then people will usually be able to see what is going on more easily and will give you lots more feedback!</p>
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<p>All the best,</p>
<p></p>
<p>Aragon<br></br> <br></br> <cite>David Palmer…</cite></p>
<p>Dr Wilson completed his PhD on aquaponics so he knows his stuff!</p>
<p></p>
<p>I have also updated the Little Black System on the website (thank you for your reminder) so you can see what it looks like now if you want!</p>
<p></p>
<p>BTW... generally, if you put up photos of your systems then people will usually be able to see what is going on more easily and will give you lots more feedback!</p>
<p></p>
<p>All the best,</p>
<p></p>
<p>Aragon<br/> <br/> <cite>David Palmer said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/designing-a-small-ap-system?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A419305&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4778851Comment419305"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Thanks for the update on the gold fish. And thanks for the link!!! That's exactly what I'm wanting.</p>
<p>Dave</p>
<p><br/> <cite>Japan Aquaponics - アクアポニックス 日本 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/designing-a-small-ap-system?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A419401#4778851Comment418456"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><br/><p>If you want to see more about the mathematics and the required filtration etc then I recommend taking a look at Lennard Wilson's website which has a very handy excel download that will tell you exactly how big your filtration surface needs to be:</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.aquaponic.com.au/consulting.htm" target="_blank">http://www.aquaponic.com.au/consulting.htm</a></p>
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</blockquote> Thanks for the update on the…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-11-28:4778851:Comment:4193052012-11-28T03:33:11.956ZDavid Palmerhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/DavidPalmer
<p>Thanks for the update on the gold fish. And thanks for the link!!! That's exactly what I'm wanting.</p>
<p>Dave</p>
<p><br></br> <cite>Japan Aquaponics - アクアポニックス 日本 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/designing-a-small-ap-system?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A419401#4778851Comment418456"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><br></br><p>If you want to see more about the mathematics and the required filtration etc then I recommend taking a look at…</p>
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<p>Thanks for the update on the gold fish. And thanks for the link!!! That's exactly what I'm wanting.</p>
<p>Dave</p>
<p><br/> <cite>Japan Aquaponics - アクアポニックス 日本 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/designing-a-small-ap-system?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A419401#4778851Comment418456"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><br/><p>If you want to see more about the mathematics and the required filtration etc then I recommend taking a look at Lennard Wilson's website which has a very handy excel download that will tell you exactly how big your filtration surface needs to be:</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.aquaponic.com.au/consulting.htm" target="_blank">http://www.aquaponic.com.au/consulting.htm</a></p>
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</blockquote> Yes, of course you are right.…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-11-28:4778851:Comment:4194012012-11-28T03:31:44.653ZDavid Palmerhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/DavidPalmer
<p>Yes, of course you are right. :) However, this is just me doing what I do. I like to study things and understand it. I did though what you said and already built my first system. I have photos posted already and it is growing basil, although slowly. There probably isn't enough light.</p>
<p>I'm using this information to build a second system. I have a 10 gallon tank some shelves. I've built a new grow bed but it still needs some work as it leaks.</p>
<p>But the short of the exercise…</p>
<p>Yes, of course you are right. :) However, this is just me doing what I do. I like to study things and understand it. I did though what you said and already built my first system. I have photos posted already and it is growing basil, although slowly. There probably isn't enough light.</p>
<p>I'm using this information to build a second system. I have a 10 gallon tank some shelves. I've built a new grow bed but it still needs some work as it leaks.</p>
<p>But the short of the exercise so far is that an aquarium based AP might work with a grow bed that is no less than 1/3 of the fish tank volume. The pump should move the fish tank volume of water once every hour. Stocking density should probably follow standard aquarium recommendations of 1 inch of slim-fish per gallon of fish tank. Add compost worms to the grow bed to convert fish solids. If there are any problems, then clean and change water as per normal for an aquarium. Ff things are going well, then this is not necessary.</p>
<p>I started a conversation with a guy at the Oregon Food Bank about aquaponics. He's interested in learning more. I may be back with a lot more questions and requests for assistance in building larger AP system(s)...</p>
<p>Dave<br/> <br/> <cite>Rob Nash said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/designing-a-small-ap-system?xg_source=activity&id=4778851%3ATopic%3A417477&page=2#4778851Comment418431"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>David, you are going to get really board with aquaponics when you get past all the math, and get on to the "just feed the fish twice a day" part. ...there is just not that much to it, and youre over thinking it for sure.</p>
<p>try to just read the aquaponic books, and not the pond, and aquarium books.</p>
<p>aquaponics has its own set of rules at this point, focus on the basics of design and function, and skip the math involved with bio filter capacity etc. ...build a system already!</p>
<p>..here i go again, barking at the neighbors before i have had my first cup of coffee.<a rel="nofollow" style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Smile.gif"/></a><a rel="nofollow" style="cursor: pointer;"></a></p>
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</blockquote> Hi David,
You are absolutely…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-11-24:4778851:Comment:4184562012-11-24T02:35:43.674ZJapan Aquaponics - アクアポニックス 日本https://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/JapanAquaponics
<p>Hi David,</p>
<p>You are absolutely right to be concerned about the stocking density etc, and that number of fish were only in the system for a very short time - they had nowhere to go and were going to be flushed away so it was a rescue intervention! The stocking density is now down to 5 small fish and the other fish were transferred to the system we set up in Tohoku. So now we have just a small number of fish and everything is cycled nicely and no ammonia buildup at all. I am going to…</p>
<p>Hi David,</p>
<p>You are absolutely right to be concerned about the stocking density etc, and that number of fish were only in the system for a very short time - they had nowhere to go and were going to be flushed away so it was a rescue intervention! The stocking density is now down to 5 small fish and the other fish were transferred to the system we set up in Tohoku. So now we have just a small number of fish and everything is cycled nicely and no ammonia buildup at all. I am going to update the website for the little black system to show this... I just haven't quite got round to it yet!</p>
<p></p>
<p>I have to agree with Rob re running the numbers so much - there really is only one major rule-of-thumb that you need to think about - as long as the volume of the fish tank is being completely recirculated every hour then you are going to be doing ok. If you want a commercial system then sure, everything can be worked out to the smallest detail - but for a home system, as long as the entire volume of the fish tank is being recirculated at least once an hour, then you are going to be pretty much ok.</p>
<p></p>
<p>If you want to see more about the mathematics and the required filtration etc then I recommend taking a look at Lennard Wilson's website which has a very handy excel download that will tell you exactly how big your filtration surface needs to be:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.aquaponic.com.au/consulting.htm" target="_blank">http://www.aquaponic.com.au/consulting.htm</a></p>
<p></p>
<p>Good luck with your project David</p>
<p><br/> <cite>David Palmer said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/designing-a-small-ap-system?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A418431&xg_source=msg_com_forum#4778851Comment418430"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I'm curious about the micro-aquaponics system. From the article, there are 20 fish in a small tank with a 13 liter grow bed filled with lava rock (SSA of 282:1). </p>
<p>* what is the volume of water in the fish tank?</p>
<p>* how fast is the pump?</p>
<p>* how many grams of food do you feed the fish each day?</p>
<p>From looking at the pictures, it's clear that this system does not follow the rule of making the grow bed the same volume as the fish tank. Thus I'm concerned about the amount of bacteria the grow bed can maintain. How long have you run it like this? What do the water tests show for pH, ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates?<br/> <br/> <cite>Japan Aquaponics - アクアポニックス 日本 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/designing-a-small-ap-system?id=4778851%3ATopic%3A417477&page=2#4778851Comment418135"><div><div class="xg_user_generated">This is also another link to our wooden micro system that we currently have running in our living room - I need to update the photos showing the plants - but will do that tomorrow I think!<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.japan-aquaponics.com/black-micro-aquaponics-system.html" target="_blank">http://www.japan-aquaponics.com/black-micro-aquaponics-system.html</a></p>
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</blockquote> David, you are going to get r…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-11-23:4778851:Comment:4184312012-11-23T15:39:20.423ZRob Nashhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RobNash
<p>David, you are going to get really board with aquaponics when you get past all the math, and get on to the "just feed the fish twice a day" part. ...there is just not that much to it, and youre over thinking it for sure.</p>
<p>try to just read the aquaponic books, and not the pond, and aquarium books.</p>
<p>aquaponics has its own set of rules at this point, focus on the basics of design and function, and skip the math involved with bio filter capacity etc. ...build a system…</p>
<p>David, you are going to get really board with aquaponics when you get past all the math, and get on to the "just feed the fish twice a day" part. ...there is just not that much to it, and youre over thinking it for sure.</p>
<p>try to just read the aquaponic books, and not the pond, and aquarium books.</p>
<p>aquaponics has its own set of rules at this point, focus on the basics of design and function, and skip the math involved with bio filter capacity etc. ...build a system already!</p>
<p>..here i go again, barking at the neighbors before i have had my first cup of coffee.<a style="cursor: pointer;"><img src="http://www.bkserv.net/images/Smile.gif"/></a><a style="cursor: pointer;"></a></p> I'm curious about the micro-a…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-11-23:4778851:Comment:4184302012-11-23T15:17:07.464ZDavid Palmerhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/DavidPalmer
<p>I'm curious about the micro-aquaponics system. From the article, there are 20 fish in a small tank with a 13 liter grow bed filled with lava rock (SSA of 282:1). </p>
<p>* what is the volume of water in the fish tank?</p>
<p>* how fast is the pump?</p>
<p>* how many grams of food do you feed the fish each day?</p>
<p>From looking at the pictures, it's clear that this system does not follow the rule of making the grow bed the same volume as the fish tank. Thus I'm concerned about the amount…</p>
<p>I'm curious about the micro-aquaponics system. From the article, there are 20 fish in a small tank with a 13 liter grow bed filled with lava rock (SSA of 282:1). </p>
<p>* what is the volume of water in the fish tank?</p>
<p>* how fast is the pump?</p>
<p>* how many grams of food do you feed the fish each day?</p>
<p>From looking at the pictures, it's clear that this system does not follow the rule of making the grow bed the same volume as the fish tank. Thus I'm concerned about the amount of bacteria the grow bed can maintain. How long have you run it like this? What do the water tests show for pH, ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates?<br/> <br/> <cite>Japan Aquaponics - アクアポニックス 日本 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/designing-a-small-ap-system?id=4778851%3ATopic%3A417477&page=2#4778851Comment418135"><div><div class="xg_user_generated">This is also another link to our wooden micro system that we currently have running in our living room - I need to update the photos showing the plants - but will do that tomorrow I think!<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.japan-aquaponics.com/black-micro-aquaponics-system.html" target="_blank">http://www.japan-aquaponics.com/black-micro-aquaponics-system.html</a></p>
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</blockquote> Aragon,
You have plenty of gr…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-11-23:4778851:Comment:4182522012-11-23T15:06:39.477ZDavid Palmerhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/DavidPalmer
<p>Aragon,</p>
<p>You have plenty of great information on your web site! I've seen those designs before on Instructables, but I hadn't seen the web site.</p>
<p>Let's run some numbers...</p>
<blockquote><p>If we take an example starting point of a 1000 litre fish tank, with 2, 500 litre growbeds positioned above the fish tank. Water will be pumped from the fish tank 50cms up to the growbeds, and will then directly return to the fish tank via the outflow pipes in the growbeds. Assuming that we…</p>
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<p>Aragon,</p>
<p>You have plenty of great information on your web site! I've seen those designs before on Instructables, but I hadn't seen the web site.</p>
<p>Let's run some numbers...</p>
<blockquote><p>If we take an example starting point of a 1000 litre fish tank, with 2, 500 litre growbeds positioned above the fish tank. Water will be pumped from the fish tank 50cms up to the growbeds, and will then directly return to the fish tank via the outflow pipes in the growbeds. Assuming that we are running the pump constantly then it needs to be powerful enough to move at least a 1000 litres of water 50cms high in 1 hour. However, if you are planning to run a timed flood and drain system, then you need to allow for the fact that the pump may only be on for 15 minutes every hour. If this is the case then the pump needs to still move the entire volume of the fish tank - but it needs to do it in only 15 minutes... and so you will need to use a much more powerful pump to allow for this. In this case the pump would need to be able to move at least 4000 litres of water to a height of 50cms in 1 hour.</p>
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<p>In this case, you have the grow bed is the same size as the fish tank (GB is two 500 liter tubs, FT is 1,000 liters).</p>
<p>Lets start with the constant flow design:</p>
<p>* pump moves FT to GB once every hour</p>
<p>* overflow lets water go back from GB to FT</p>
<p>* GB is filled with grow media, thus only 50% of the volume is available for water (1/2 FT)</p>
<p><strong>retention time = volume / pump rate</strong></p>
<p>retention time = 1/2 FT / (FT/hour) = 30 minutes</p>
<p>I don't need to worry about SSA as there is plenty of room for most any media to grow more than enough bacteria to consume ammonia being produced.</p>
<p>For the flood-and drain mechanism, there is a change if pump rate. It needs to move the entire FT volume in 15 minutes (1/4hour). Then it slowly drains the water for 45 minutes (3/4 hour).</p>
<p><strong>retention time = 1/2 * (volume * pump rate + volume * drain rate)</strong></p>
<p>retention time = 1/2 * (1/2 FT / (FT / 15 minutes) + 1/2 FT / (FT / 45 minutes))</p>
<p> = 1/2 * (1/2 * 15 minutes + 1/2 * 45)</p>
<p> = 1/2 * (7.5 minutes + 22.5 minutes)</p>
<p> = 1/2 * (30 minutes)</p>
<p> = 15 minutes</p>
<p>The short version for any fill and drain is that the retention time is simply 1/2 the cycle time. The cycle time is the time between starting each flood. This applies to auto-siphons, ebb and flow, and timed flood and drain systems. They are all based on putting water in, then letting is come out.</p>
<p>What I find interesting is that the advice is to have well over the 10 minute of retention time recommend in the pond bio-filter document. This is great news.</p>
<p>I picked up a book on Koi ponds that reaffirms this recommendation. It suggests a bio-filter of at least 1/3 the pond size (or 1/2 FT), and to pump the entire pond water through it once every 2 or 3 hours. They always use constant flood. This gives a retention time of (1/3 FT) / (FT / 2 hours) = 40 minutes. Elsewhere in the book, they recommend a minimum of 10 to 15 minute retention time. I now have multiple sources advising a retention time of at least 10 minutes.</p>
<p><br/> <cite>Japan Aquaponics - アクアポニックス 日本 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/designing-a-small-ap-system?id=4778851%3ATopic%3A417477&page=2#4778851Comment418135"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I am a little late to the discussion I think, but we have been running and building micro systems for the past 18 months and have honestly had no issues at all with them. We check the water a few times a week, keep stocking densities very low, just use small goldfish, and are growing a variety of plants - one system has just small houseplants in, and the other we had strawberries, lettuces and herbs. All did really well.</p>
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</blockquote> I am a little late to the dis…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-11-22:4778851:Comment:4181352012-11-22T02:55:14.619ZJapan Aquaponics - アクアポニックス 日本https://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/JapanAquaponics
<p>I am a little late to the discussion I think, but we have been running and building micro systems for the past 18 months and have honestly had no issues at all with them. We check the water a few times a week, keep stocking densities very low, just use small goldfish, and are growing a variety of plants - one system has just small houseplants in, and the other we had strawberries, lettuces and herbs. All did really well.</p>
<p></p>
<p>We submitted our IKEA-based micro aquaponics design to…</p>
<p>I am a little late to the discussion I think, but we have been running and building micro systems for the past 18 months and have honestly had no issues at all with them. We check the water a few times a week, keep stocking densities very low, just use small goldfish, and are growing a variety of plants - one system has just small houseplants in, and the other we had strawberries, lettuces and herbs. All did really well.</p>
<p></p>
<p>We submitted our IKEA-based micro aquaponics design to several DIY sites (Instructables / Wikihow / Make:Projects) so that others could make these systems as well - and the reports have been really positive so far and I am happy that new people are getting involved and trying out aquaponics: we also put the instructions on our own site as well:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.japan-aquaponics.com/micro-aquaponics-plans.html" target="_blank">http://www.japan-aquaponics.com/micro-aquaponics-plans.html</a></p>
<p></p>
<p>This is also another link to our wooden micro system that we currently have running in our living room - I need to update the photos showing the plants - but will do that tomorrow I think!</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.japan-aquaponics.com/black-micro-aquaponics-system.html" target="_blank">http://www.japan-aquaponics.com/black-micro-aquaponics-system.html</a></p>
<p></p>
<p>Hope that these examples are good for you, and the small systems really can work as long as they are set up carefully, looked after nicely, and monitored regularly to make sure that nothing toxic is building up.</p>
<p></p>
<p>All the best,</p>
<p>Aragon</p>
<p></p>
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